Etching disaster

[hbmasa]

I'm trying to etch and failing miserably. No matter what  the magnificent damascus design is gone by finish. I've done over 10 etched on same blade and getting frustrated. I used fc, but I don't understand and will not buy or use it again. I started using vinegar and boiled the metal in it about 6 hours total. This didn't work several times. I heard to add salt and soap, but nothing. Finally I saw something that said hydrogen peroxide.  This was the first stuff I could see bubbling. When do you stop toothbrushing oxides because it can erase the lines. It starts a nice darker color with white cracks but then it all disappears. I have have tried many many combinations  of the order of brush in etch, spray windex and then a dip of water. After I'm done I boil finished etch for 30 min in soda, but there is still fine oxide that disappears with my lines when I barely touch it. Should I toothbrush it hard and soak longer, if it's deeper it won't disappear. Can you sand through raised lines so damascus isn't visible.

Tx

  HB

The look in the pic would be fine to finish with

[Steve Sells]

I etch AFTER all sanding. just neutralize and oil after etching, Else you are sanding away the etch

You need to give us more info, what steels are being used? what chemical strength for etching

[hbmasa]

Thank you. I use "about" a half gallon of white vinegar and about 1 small bottle of hp. It can go 10 minutes and look good or overnite. Other than a lot of pitting, the same. Looks good til after boiling in baking soda, then it wipes off. Does my Pic look right? I let the knife cool and rinse in water and then let it dry all the way before coating it in mineral oil, which is where I've used toothbrush, 1500 grit on hard block, a flat sharpening rods and several sharpening stones. I know it's 1080, pretty sure it's 1084.

Tx

If I could keep that figure above, is that good enough

This is the look I get if I take sticky black sruffoff gently

[hbmasa]

57 minutes ago, Steve Sells said:

I etch AFTER all sanding. just neutralize and oil after etching, Else you are sanding away the etch

Do you let the oxide go if it's smooth. It's that final cleaning I'm failing 

[Steve Sells]

I hand rub it with my fingers to remove excess etchant, that is all

[hbmasa]

Do you rewash w acetone after that. Do you use enchant to keep damp for wipedown or some soap enhanced dipping bowl

My lines will disappear under normal strength pinches. I got some beautiful dark finishes last night but I ground them away trying to expose my shiny lines I think I ground smooth

[Steve Sells]

do not grind after etching

[hbmasa]

Just gently pinch  blade under the etch still?

[George N. M.]

Consider what you are doing with etching.  With multi layer steels of different types, e.g. high and low carbon steels, the different compositions are differently reactive with an acid.  So, part of the more reactive steel is oxidized away leaving a valley (usually the higher carbon layers).  That topography is what gives the pattern.  So, if you grind or do anything more than a light polish after etching you wear away the high points and make the pattern disappear.  With pattern welded steel of the same composition, e.g. cable,  The layer boundaries and slightly different in composition and will show up in an acid but they are much thinner and less pronounced than the different alloy layers.  So, it is much easier to make the disappear if you grind or polish after the etch.

I've had pretty good luck with muriatic (hydrochloric) acid from the hardware store.  Just remember to neutralize it after etching with baking soda before disposing of it.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[hbmasa]

Thanks, I thought I might be sanding through the grain. How do I know when I've reduced enough oxide. My judgement isn't working. Should I toothbrush the face after my last etch, the residue comes out sticky if I've left it. What is the order of the final cleaning,boiling and gentle toothbrush scrub? I've read many suggestions to oil the last toothbrush scrub but I'd also read to do it unlubricated. Is peroxide and vinegar ok it works near instantly 

Just dip in straight dtrength muriatic for how long do the final stages go. I'll try it if I can use full strength muriatic and a 1/4 box of soda will make it perfectly fine to pour out in yard ?

[George N. M.]

My suggestion is the same as how to harden and temper mystery steel:  experiment.  Take some samples ("coupons") and treat them differently to see how different techniques work out.  And, TAKE NOTES.  You will not be able to remember all the variables and results.

I'm not sure what H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) would do since it usually only reacts with organic materials but others may know better than I.

Once, your acid has stopped reacting with the baking soda (foaming) it will be chemically neutral and can be disposed of however you care to.  However, if you have been reacting with various heavy metals, e.g. chrome or zinc, there is still a problem.

For any etchant, try it for a short period of time and if it hasn't worked as much as you want put it back in for a bit.  For example, put it in muriatic acid for a minute or two and them see how much etching it has done.  Then, you will have an idea of how long it will take you to get to the point you want. Eezee Peezee.

BTW, only store muriatic acid in the can it came in or a glass container with a GLASS stopper.  If you store it in a glass jar that has a metal lid with a plastic liner it will corrode through the lid and the fumes will rust everything within 10' of it in your shop (do not ask me how I know this). 

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Florida Man Metals]

I haven't done any etching but I have pickled a lot of silver. What you describe sounds like a pickling solution I use vinegar and salt in an electric crock pot with heat.

FYI if you mix hydrogen peroxide and hydrochloric/muratic acid the peroxide will act as a powerful oxidizer. I believe they call it piranha solution. They mainly use this solution to dissolve circuit board parts for gold recovery.

Don't know about etching but I would suggest you don't use hydrogen peroxide. 

[Florida Man Metals]

Nice tip about neutralizing/killing off your used acid solution George.

Normally to eliminate other metals in solution you would use the series of metal reactivity.

Pick a metal that is more reactive/higher up on the chart than the metals in solution. Put a piece of that metal in the solution. It will go into solution/dissolve and precipitate out all metals lower on the chart.

Filter out the solids and then kill off the acid. For very acidic solutions I use sodium carbonate. I buy pool ph up from Walmart. It will take a lot of baking soda and many additions.

Whatever you choose to neutralize the acid with add it slowly because it will bubble up very high. Make sure your contained has a lot of head space to keep from overflowing and spilling.

[hbmasa]

I have no plans other than steel cable, might do a gomai, with nickel. One it bubbles over, I can pour it in yard?, can you only make half the acid safe to pour out. Other the vinegar smell bellowing, I can do it inside. I did. If it reduces oxides it can't get them all because I still get the sticky paste bladeside. Unless, Hp releases the hold and then it's not even attached for my last scrub, whenever given. Is there pictures I can see each stepbefore and after to diagnose my problem.

Thanks guys

 

[Florida Man Metals]

I can't  help you with the finish of your blade. No experience. Others I'm sure can.

I can tell you that you don't need to worry about the other metals in solution if you're essentially working with iron. A little rust never hurt anything.

As to dumping the solution in the yard you can once it is neutralized. You want to add sodium bicarbonate/carbonate until it stops bubbling/reacting. You are trying to bring the acid up to a neutral ph.

 

Don't dump it on anything you care about. Salt hurts most plants.

[hbmasa]

Thank, I'm missing the meaning of second paragraph. I'm not sure what you're saying is ok. Sorry, gotta a case of Wednesdays.

Thanks for help

Is sodium carbonate some thing obvious like baking soda?

Is there anything obvious like don't pour into septic system? Down drain. 

[Florida Man Metals]

No worries, I explained the difference further up on the thread.

Just add baking soda until it stops fizzing and you can dump it in the yard.

[George N. M.]

I agree with FMM.  I'm on a 1 acre property that was once a horse property.  My shop is in the old horse barn.  I dig a hole out in the corral and pour in the neutralized acid.  I don't pour it down the drain because I don't want to do anything bad to the little beasties in the septic system,  If I were on a community/city sewer system I might pour it down the drain followed by lots of water to dilute it.

Yes, sodium bicarbonate is also known as baking soda.  Any carbonate will do including finely crushed limestone.  Just keep adding until it stops bubbling/reacting.

G

[hbmasa]

Good ones guys, thanks. Our groundwater runs off island into intercoastal waterway or ocean at floods. Will muriatac burn me if I pick up and put down knife "quickly". Windexes ammonia stops the etch when I pick it up and aquire it right. A little discomfort like heat I can handle but that stops when you quit touching it.

Tx much

Should I never etch in rust colored etch? (Old rust from hours ago?) ,it is white vinegar

[Latticino]

Couple of suggestions:

1. Get yourself a pair of vinyl gloves and use them during the etch process.  Muriatic acid is not good for your skin.  Also avoid breathing the vapors.
2. Cable Damascus is a very subtle pattern.  As I understand it, you don't really have two different types of steel, so you aren't really etching for topography that you can later emphasize by polishing the high points with a hard backed 2,000 grit sandpaper.  I believe that the white lines between the darker areas are just showing the decarbonization at the welded interface between cable wires. 
3. I recommend that you complete your etch, neutralize, and clean off oxides  with soap and a soft cloth.   During the etch, if you must remove oxides, also use a soft brush.  
4. Some folks recommend going with a slow, light etching solution (white vinegar or ferric diluted at least 1:4 with distilled water) and letting it etch for a long time. 
5. I haven't been very successful getting a cable damascus etch to really stand out (which is why I switched to pattern welded 1084 and 15N20 even though I love the traditional cable look), so can't give good advice on that, but you might want to try a final soak in highly concentrated instant coffee.  In pattern welded steel it can really punch up those blacks.
6. George's advice for test coupons is really on point.  Strongly recommend you follow this.

[Frosty]

You're scaring me, where did you find your etching procedures? What's with boiling the blade, isn't it etching quickly enough? Or do you think boiling does a better job of neutralizing the echant? 

When you neutralize used echant remember to pour the base solution into the acid in a deep container so it doesn't foam or boil over. Neutralizing or diluting a strong acid is "Exothermic" meaning it generates heat so you need to add the denser to the lighter solution. Hence Acid into Water so the acid sinks into the water and the heat distributes and to boil over it must heat the entire container of liquid above it's boiling point.

If you do it WRONG and pour water into acid . Water being less dense spreads on top of the acid and reacts only on the surface and WILL BOIL RAPIDLY, foam up and spill! That means you have acidic foam boiling out of the container or in extreme conditions splattering or spraying around the room. This is a B A D thing.

NO, handling your blade in the echant should NEVER cause any discomfort to your fingers, face or eyes because you ARE wearing your PPE! If you are handling acids or strong bases without rubber gloves, eye protection and an apron you are too foolish to be allowed anywhere near dangerous chemicals!

Seriously, STOP doing this until AFTER you've read a good book on the subject. FIRST about safely handling strong acids and bases. There are decent articles and how tos online but you need have a grasp of basic chemistry to understand well enough to follow. THEN read a book on etching written by a knowledgeable author say Steve. 

Do NOT experiment with chemistry, especially reactive chemistry following directions by some guy on the internet! Too much or Most of what you read in blogs and I hate to say it internet fora is written by people who think they have a clue. You can find yourself doing things that can injure or maim you is horrifyingly wrong ways!

Stop playing with dangerous chemical solutions and crack a book!

Frosty The Lucky.

I got something IMPORTANT backwards in the above and the OS won't let me edit. Pour the used up echant into a dilute BASE, not the other way around! Do it in a deep enough container the reaction CANNOT overtop the container and spill!

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[hbmasa]

Polishing thenjigh point w 1500 is erasing all lines. I can do it with lines a little, only by hand, but if I push for clear lines, it starts to disappear.  

I thought the muriatic was commercial strength(?) and in a plastic. ( the floor of my car was too, and it ate through)

What is the difference in letting base not make bubbles if the acid is gonna make the bubbles too. 

This should be approachable sans class or reading as Moses did it in the bible. It can be close enough without exact.

How do people smooth sand to 1500 grit before etching and then stll have enough left to etch the contours?

Millions of people use chemistry w no idea why. I can be one of them.

Built up oxides in etch ok?

[Frosty]

Lord save your neighbors!

You don't USE chemistry, life IS chemistry and it's too easy to disrupt it in ways that will not support life or if you're lucky only disable or maim you. 

I'd quote Heinlein but it'd be a waste. 

 

[Latticino]

2 hours ago, Latticino said:

As I understand it, you don't really have two different types of steel, so you aren't really etching for topography that you can later emphasize by polishing the high points with a hard backed 2,000 grit sandpaper.

You appear to be misreading my note.  You will likely NOT GET ANY SIGNIFICANT TOPOGRAPHY etching cable, so polishing afterwards is NOT RECOMMENDED.

Hopefully this is clear enough for you to understand.

1 hour ago, hbmasa said:

as Moses did it in the bible

Pretty sure Moses didn't try to etch cable damascus...  If you mean he got "close enough" to the promised land, I doubt he would have agreed.  Recommended class or reading good reference is to avoid getting hurt yourself, hurting others or the environment.  Acids are not something to play around with.  What would you have done if you saw someone posting that hydrofluoric acid was a good option for etching your blade? 

[hbmasa]

I'd say if they got a bottle, sure? The grocery people think I'm making meth with all the vinegar and hp I buy. I base my etch on several dips. I spray with windex, tthen clean each side with soapy water. If I dont wipe off the last dip in etch it has black sticky stuff on it. I can fake cleaning pre windex etc., but it just disappears when I try to get the immediate lasts oxides off.

OK latticino,I was misreading. You're saying the type of damascus won't ever be one I can just skim for shine I think

Thanks guys

 

Any ideas on hp and vinegar anyone. It darken steel fast and the color stays on forever, except light stripes