welding/welder question

[Chris P]

I've been playing around with an arc welder for a while now and its not going very smoothly. What I'm wondering is just how much easier a MIG is compared to an arc?

The issue is that I'm working with metal that is thicker than the little buzz box is meant for. So, I'm kind of in the market for another welder anyway. With things being a little tight I'm hesitant to spend that 500+ on a new MIG. Yet with the quality of my welds to begin with, and the fact that the welder isn't supposed to be welding metal this thick I'm not really comfortable welding anything structural...

So, should I bite the bullet and buy a MIG, in the hopes that I can welder better with it. Or should I stick it out with the buzz box and desperately hope I eventually get better?

[maddog]

It takes a while to learn stick. They say you have to burn about 50# of rod. But you will get a higher rated buzzbox for your money. Its also a lot easier if you have DC

[HWooldridge]

It's better to master stick first. MIG has its place but stick is very useful - especially if you do any repair work.

What rods and sizes, heat range, etc. are you using? Maybe we can help you with technique or settings.

I learned with 6011 and am glad that I did as 6013 is often recommended for beginners and many people have trouble with slag inclusions. You might want to try 7014 as you can actually lay it down and burn a very nice bead without holding an arc.

[LarryM]

Depending on how many amperes your welder will produce as to whether it is too small for thickness of steel being welded. Weld preparation is also important.
You can get better penetration at lower amps, With a smaller size rod. Vee out weld seam, Then run stringer beads. I'm more in favor of a stick welder because it has less things to go wrong. Mig requires gas cylinder if you're not using flux core wire. Some other comsumable include gun tips, gun nozzles, gun liners, if it gets kink or worn. So my advice is stay with your stick welder or buy bigger stick welder for thicker steel.

Larry

[Chris P]

I know what your saying about the slag inclusion.. It is one of the main reasons I have been considering MIG. I've been working with 1/8th 6013s for the most part. The real trouble I'm encountering is trying to weld a 1/8th piece of flat steel to a 1/16th tube. The bead seems to land on either one or the other and when it does connect them the slag is usually between them causing an awkward tunnel under the weld.

The buzz box I have only goes to 100amps and does not seem to penetrate very easily. Although a lot of that could be due to my lack of skill. I wish I could get something a bit bigger, but I am confined by only having 120 outlets at my disposal.

Another issue I've run into is that I can't really strike an arc at low amps. Being that I'm going to be welding sheet as well this will be a problem. Maybe I'm just doing something wrong, but I'm having a hell of a time striking and arc and that in itself is frustrating.

Thanks for the replies, any suggestions are welcome.

[maddog]

buzz boxes dont work well on 120 and stick arcs are harder to maintain at low currents. For learning one should start with 1/8" or even larger. Stick is very useful and a basic 220v machine will weld a wide range of thicknesses but stick is not suited for stuff below 3/32 and even then its tricky. Yeah there are some guys who can do nice stick welds on sheet but they are very good welders. In your case I would consider one of the 120v mig outfits. They are nice and easy to use but limited in their upper range.

You should probably practice a straight fillet weld before doing it with pipe. What rod are you using? 6010/6011 gives very good penetration with little slag. You might try a small gap in the weld using thin wire as a spacer.

[stevet]

if youre welding thin stuff mig will be far easier, it takes far less skill than stick to use

[racer3j]

I use my Dillon or other traditional torch as default. If heat transfer is an issue, then mig. I have the Lincoln SP170T- 220 current and the model sold through welding specialty houses. No 220 in garage. But I have a big noisy 5000w generator.mt

[LarryM]

If you are having trouble striking and arc try think of striking a match. Don't tap, just pretend you have a match in the electrode holder. I would try 6011 for the thin sheet it is a quick freeze rod. When you whip it in and out of the weld puddle you will notice want I mean. With that small of a welder, try 3/32 or 1/16 rod on the lower amp setting. You might be surprised how well it will work for you.

Larry

[archiphile]

As a certified professional welder, this is how I view you dilemma(s)

With a single vee bevel, I can run a good but joint @ about 90 amps, in all positions, 7018-1/8" rod. This is using a 1/8" 6010 rod a lower amps (don't really remember the setting) root pass. This is on 3/8" ANSI A- 500 (A-36) Plate, with and w/o a backup plate.Leave a 1/16" land on the bevel and also use a 1/8" root gap. What I am trying to say is that I do not think that your machine is to small.

With respect to the slag inclusion, it sounds like you angle of attack is incorrect. Use a lead angle of about 10 degrees while holding the stinger and rod at about 45 degrees with respect to the work. This is what I do. Also make sure that your arc length is correct. With a 1/8" rod your arc length should be about 1/8" ( if I remember correctly)

Take all of this information with a grain of salt, I have not used SMAW (aka stick) for about 5 years.
I had a hard time with stick in school, but I felt a great sense of accomplishment once I got it. My suggestion like other would be to stick with it. You can do a great many things with stick, and due to the low amount of consumables required to stick weld as compared with GMAW (MIG). I have a MIG machine I like it it was expensive and I will take me a lot of projects to equalize my ROI (rate of return). All told I spent $1,000 on the machine and consumables. Another $500 on a torch and bottles.

Edited October 19, 2008 by archiphile
Clarifications

[Jan]

As for MIG, my best experience was heavy Tweco gun on at least 200 amp machine.

[Hillbillysmith]

STAY WITH THE STICK WELDING MACHINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Trust me, a MIG welder will do you NO GOOD if you do not have any welding skill/knowledge! On top of that, you will need to shell out extra money for contact tips, nozzles, liners, wire(which is more expensive than rods), gas, and possible nozzle dip or spay. Yes, a MIG welder is easier to use and makes better LOOKING beads. But if you don't have any skill to weld with in the first place, the weld will not hold. And get rid of that darned 6013!! That was your first mistake.

Get some E-6011 rods. Either 3/32 or 1/8 inch rods. They are the easiest rod to learn with. They start easier, give you a better weld with less knowledge, and you can use them on SLIGHTLY rusty/dirty metal, so there isn't a lot of metal preparation.. Next, the metal isn't too heavy for your welder. Get heavier metal. 1/4 inch is preferred. When you use E-6011, you want to use a "whip-and-pause" motion. Pause in one spot to let the rod burn in, and then whip out to burn out the metal and come back into the puddle to let it fill. Keep doing this until you get a "roll of dimes" effect and you want the ripples roughly a 1/16 inch apart. The closer the better.

You also want to hold the rod about an 1/8 to 3/16 inch away at all times while welding. Practice in all positions and remember; skill doesn't come to you over night, but advice is just a click away!! Any and all help can and will be given to you from many here on this site. There are countless minds of greatness here that will spill as much knowledge out as you can handle to help you in your future endeavors, so take advantage of it!

Good luck,
-Hillbilly

P.S:

1/8th inch E-6011 amperage range is 70-130 according to AWS code for that electrode (but always check the manufacturer's specs for exact range.
3/32 inch E-6011 amperage range is 60-90 according to AWS.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Hillbillysmith

[Chris P]

Thanks everyone for your advice and encouragement. I am going to stay with the stick welder. I am thinking of getting a bigger outlet so that I can upgrade my machine when I get better. I figure its worth it even if I expand to MIG eventually. But, for now, I'll be sticking with my little buzz box. I also picked up some 6011s in 1/8 and 3/32.

Thanks again.

[Mills]

I started on stick and unknown composition rods, a wide variety of them. I decided to build an old fashioned pontoon boat out of drums so I started welding and blowing holes in all positions. I'd had some welding instruction 20 yrs before that and the weldor that gave me the rod answered my questions as they came up. after several weeks was finally able to weld two pieces of sheet metal cut from a drum with 1/8 6011. terribly unsuitable but an indication that I was mastering the process. When I got a MIG, the lessons I had learned about air gap and puddle control served me well. To get a good weld, start with a good fit and proper bevel/air gap. that is the part to learn. The process used then becomes easier.

[grimme]

you need to get alongside a welder to watch and learn from, ive always found it easier to learn by watchin and doin than readin, so when you practise you know youre doin it right and not just gettin into some bad habits. I not used stick much for 10years but it still has its place, like outside in the wind, or for speacials, but mig is soo fast, and no slag, you still gota get youre angles right so keep practisin

[Pault17]

Chris,
what has been said before this is great stuff.
I am impressed that you are trying to work on 1/8 and 1/16 inch material. I have typically experienced occasional burn-through when working that thin. What my instructor told me on that is to work the rod as though you are welding only the thicker material and include the smaller stock into the mix with less weld time. on a quick three-count, one-two on the thick and three on the thin. that was using 6011

[Travis Covington]

Chris,
Hillbilly hit it right. Practice with the 6011 and get used to what your machine does. It will get easyer with practice.
Travis

[Chris P]

Thanks again for the replies. 6011s are definitely the way to go. Tonight I actually put down some beads that look like something. So, I'm progressing, slowly, but surely . One thing I can say, I am really enjoying it. While I'm welding I'm so focused on what I'm doing that I actually relax. Well, except when I'm having trouble striking the arc, but that usually pass.

[ironwolfforgeca]

Welding is a hands on job you don't get it out of a book ! Till later so try anything ! and learn from how it welded or didn't watch the puddleand see what it does as for AC buss box 6011 is a good rod / called a farmer rod does allot--you need to learn what rods work with what projects / metalsdown the road :) if you want to learn to arc weld 6010 will teach you !if you can run / weld with 6010 you will not have a problem with most rods !remember some rods run /weld on AC some on DC- or DC+ & always run a test weld when you don't know metal or what rod will work !
Steve's Welding

[Sabre]

i started out using a mig and it worked well....all my welds held on my first try!.no problems

[james gonzalez]

Hi Chris.
I guess you have alot of information now.
You have the right idea, though. Focus, relax and practice. You are pretty much going to have to weld a mile of bead to become a pro, but that does'nt take as long as it seems. Just have fun. Welding eventually becomes the easy part of the job.

[nfinch86]

HI; I Could not Agree More , ENJOY YOURSELF!!!! .... Norm :