Blacksmith Jim Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Howdy all, I am wanting to improve my basic joinery skills. I am hoping to apply them to small things like candle holders, etc.. I want to start simple, and figured 1/4 inch round tenons would be OK. I recently started a thread about making Monkey Tools, and got a great response: http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/f7/monkey-tool-7599/ Now I'm wondering, what is the best way to swage down the tenon from the stock? I found that by mostly hammering a taper, the monkey tool won't really form a nice shoulder. So I am assuming I need to form more of it up front, and just use the monkey tool to clean the shoulder. As I said before, I tried just a taper. When that didn't work, I used a blunt hot cut hardy to set the shoulder, then I drew out the tenon by hand hammering. This ended up causing the base of the tenon to break off. Probably from a combination of working too cold, and inducing cracks / breaks by using a blunt hot cut. So what tool should I be using to form the rough tenon? I'm assuming I want a top and bottom swage. But I'm wondering if I'm better off making a spring swage, or a guillotine tool, or one of those chopper deals (looks like a movie directors clap board, *Action!*). I started to make a guillotine a while back, but haven't finished it. I've heard spring tools break off a lot and are hard to get to line up well... What do you think is the best bang for my buck? Time is really the sought after commodity in my world. I have a few hours to work in the shop about once a week, so I don't have hours and hours to waste... Any advice is welcome! Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesteryearforge Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 Guilotine tool - or just bend a square bar into a U shape and use as a disposable spring swage Mike Tanner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Hammer Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 You shouldn't consider spending time learning skills wasted. Think of it as an investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug C Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 (edited) A smith I know has a tool the was formed by clamping two pieces of 1/2 inch stock together and drilling 3-4 different size holes next to each other along the seam (3/8, 5/16,1/4, 3/16). Then he made a mount for the hardy hole with the bottom piece fixed at a 90 degree to the hardy insert and the second piece mounted above the first so that it pivoted above the first piece at the hardy end (think about opening and closing your fingers like a pair of scissors). Take a heat abd use a hardy or chisel to get the shoulder started, hammer the stock out to about 3/8 diameter, anther heat then stick it in the first set of holes and hit the the top bar turning 90 degrees with each strike. When it fits that hole nicely, take another heat and repeat the process in the next smallest hole etc. Once you are down to the size tenon you want cut to length and dress with the monkey tool. Hope that makes sense. Edited October 7, 2008 by Doug C smellin mistakes....I mean spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 There's no reason a spring swage should break a lot or be hard to line up at all if it's made properly. Locating pins, or guides, sort the first problem. and making a properly shaped spring with proper temper (if using Spring Steel) sorts the other. I worked with Moony from Oz and he used (and made) more than a few spring swages, made right they're a joy to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 (edited) sorry doubled post Edited October 7, 2008 by Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 Yeah Doug. That sounds like the 'director's clap board' approach I was talking about above. It seems like it might be a little faster to make. But the guillotine tool seems more versatile in the long run... I'm almost inclined to go with a spring swage just to start with. I can cut, clamp, drill, and weld on a handle pretty quickly.... dj, I don't think of it as wasted.. But if its a choice between spinning in circles while I learn something the hard way, or going about something the smart way, I would prefer to go the smart route. Plus, if I spend all my forging time one week making half a tool and thats it, it leaves me wanting a lot more, and feeling a bit hamstrung during the next week... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petere76 Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 regional chaos, any way you want to get the shape is acceptable although the spring fullers and the guilotine tools are handy and make for fast repeatable work. whatever method you choose to use, make certain to buther or set the original shoulder cut. This process elimates or minimizes the chance of failure at the 90 degree shoulder. With round tenons, chamfer the monkey tool so that the the shoulder has a small radius. This small attention to detail in the process will eliminate a lot of frustration. Good luck and have at it. Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unkle spike Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 (edited) I have seen a Tenon Finishing tool. I don't have one but here is basically how you make one. Take two pieces of steel about 1/2 thick by 4 inches long and 1 inch or so wide. Thickness would depend on the size of hole you are drilling below. You take the two pieces and lightly chamfer the mating edges. Stack them face to face with a light piece of cardboard between them (like a single thickness of manilla folder), and clamp them tight. Drill sized holes along the seam down between the halves. Take some sand paper and relieve the sharp edges on the flats where the holes run. The you fashion a "U" shaped strap to hold them together like a spring swage, and bolt or weld it to the halves. It would probably be advisable to add some sort of alignment pins to keep the faces lined up. After roughing out the tenon, you use this tool to finish shape them, hammering the roughed tenon between the halves, then a monkey tool to "square up" the shoulder. Something like this, without that big block under the halves. http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-1900s-Round-Blacksmith-Swage_W0QQitemZ250302706275QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250302706275&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 This tool takes some time to make, and requires some good alignment when drilling, but they do work well. Edited October 7, 2008 by unkle spike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 Thanks Ian, I'm kind of leaning that route now. Some of the more advanced smiths I hang out with have poo-poo'ed spring swages, so I think I've been a bit biased from that. I have not made one myself yet. Probably a good reason too right there I think. I doubt I would use spring steel for it, and I'm not sure about the guides (though it sounds like a good idea..).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 (edited) Peter, quick repeatability is really something I'm working on here. I want to be able to make certain things. Also, I'm not sure what the best way is to butcher or cut in for the shoulder of the tenon. I tried the hot cut, and it seemed like a bad idea from the get go. That is one of the reasons I was thinking the guillotine made a lot of sense. I could make a set of dies for butchering or setting the shoulder, then another set for swaging the tenon down... Spike, thanks for the feedback. You know its funny. I hear a lot of people talk about guides for spring swages, but I've never actually seen any with them. I've seen a number without, and pictures galore without, but none with :P Edited October 7, 2008 by RegionalChaos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 7, 2008 Share Posted October 7, 2008 last time I needed 20 square tennons I roughed them out with the screwpress ---no special dies just a bottom plate edge aligned with the top ram with a stop block. Bump it a couple of times, rotate and repeat. I cleaned up with a monkey tool made from a deep wall socket. A Butcher is less likely to leave a propagating crack than a hot cut in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 7, 2008 Author Share Posted October 7, 2008 Thomas, I once cleaned up some square tenons in a clean post vice, just by clamping and pushing numerous times. I was surprised how well it worked. Although I wish I had good access to a screw press or fly press to do it in! I guess I could forge them square to start, in clean dies (just flat ones) and it should leave a good shoulder. Then I could swage it round and clean it up with the monkey tool.. Hmmm that sounds like my best bet. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Regional, a guillotine with some butchering dies is real sweet for butchering in the shoulders. I've tried drawing out the tenon itself with flat dies, but it wasn't too effective. Make yourself a squish-a-matic for that part. Take a piece of 1 1/2" heavy walled square tube about 4"long and make a cutout about 1/2" from end by drilling two 1 1/4" holes an inch apart the first 1 3/4" from the end, then file away the rest of the material. This will leave you with an oblong hole through two sides of the square tube. Weld a piece of angle iron that will fit into your hardie hole onto the side that sticks below the end nearest the hole by a couple of inches. Now find a chunk of 1 1/4" square bar and cut a piece about 3/4" long and drop it down the square tube, this is your bottome die. Cut another piece of the 1 1/4" square bar that will touch the bottom die and leave a couple of inches sticking out of the top of the square tube. Dress the top for striking. Also grind a small (~1/8") radius on all of the top edges of the bottom die and the bottom edges of the top die. Once you've butchered in your shoulder this thing will pull your tenon out real quick and nice. On other thing (for repeatability), it's pretty easy to fab up a stop guide on the backside of your guillotine tool for when you've got bunches of tenons to make. It's also fairly easy to make a bottom die for the smoosh-a-matic that will make the tenons a consistent size. Simply cut out a "U" in the top surface of the bottom die that is as deep as you want the tenons thick, but leave some material on the sides to stop the top die at the correct diameter. If you've got the material you can build the smooshamatic in an hour. A nice guillotine will take you a bit longer, but still not too terribly complicated. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CurlyGeorge Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Hey Doug. I made a tool just like that, only didn't hinge it. I put a long handle on the end of the top swage. I'm going to remove the handle and hardy pin and weld them to plates to make another set of dies for my guilotine. That should make it a whole lot easier to use when working alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 mcraigl, drawing or photos would be most helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truman Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 I could make a set of dies for butchering or setting the shoulder, then another set for swaging the tenon down... This is the best way to go. I made these exact dies for my guillotine tool last week. It works great. Finish your guillotine tool first. This is a very versatile tool -- and making dies is easy. Once this is done, you'll be able to make all different size tenons -- they will be quick and easy to make and repeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 8, 2008 Author Share Posted October 8, 2008 mcraigl, I was thinking about building something exactly like that all out of angle. I hadn't thought about using square tubing. Sounds worth while though. Truman, I think that is the direction I'm heading in. Seems like a good way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_sandy_creek_forge Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 (edited) Check out BluePrint BP0065 Guillotine Anvil Tool I built one of these a while back and have been thanking Jr. for the design every time i use it. It worked great on the tenons for the railing I made last spring. I think I managed to whip out 40 3/8" round tenons on 1/2" square stock in something like 6 hours or so (including 1 lunch break, a couple of cigarette breaks, and all the time I spent trying to find my hammer after I didn't set it down where I would know it was.....) On top of that this tool's versatility is almost endless. Texturing dies, butcher dies, cutoff dies, swaging dies, the list goes on and on and on. -Aaron @ the SCF Edited October 8, 2008 by the_sandy_creek_forge Clarification and grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jose Gomez Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 Great video of forging a tennon with a power hammer and a 3 stage spring swage. The spring tool butchers the tennon, then the next stage roughs it out , and the final stage knocks the tennon down to final dimention. Then the video shows the use of a monkey tool welded to an air chisel. There is no reason that you could not use this same style of tool with a hand hammer, but you just can't get any more efficient than this.Power Hammer Tenon - Blacksmith Photo Gallery Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 one problem I see with the guillontine butcher is if your not careful you could end up cutting of the tennon ...I think their should be a hole in the butcher slightly bigger than the tennon...that would stop it from cutting through with a treddle hammer or power hammer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 rather than holing the butcher just bend a piece of cold stock to hang on the bottom die so that the butcher can't close all the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbob Posted October 8, 2008 Share Posted October 8, 2008 that will work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 rather than holing the butcher just bend a piece of cold stock to hang on the bottom die so that the butcher can't close all the way. That's what I was thinking about while brainstorming on this earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted October 9, 2008 Author Share Posted October 9, 2008 Jose! That video was great. Thanks for pointing it out to me. What a wonderfully efficient setup. Something to strive for. I don't have a power hammer to use, but it is nice to see the tooling laid out with the three different steps all right next to each other! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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