History of the Hardie Hole?

[Bantou]

Can anyone point me in the direction of sources regarding the history of the Hardie Hole, especially when it started being put in anvils and how it got it's name? I'm working on a video about the history of the hot cut hardie and other bottom tools and google is absolutely failing me. 

[GNJC]

Good question, I've been interested in finding the answer for well over a decade and haven't come across anything more than theories so far. Hardy, Hardye, Hardie, Hardi, Hardee are just some of the spellings I've come across and none have helped, and the etymology doesn't indicate a Scandinavian or Celtic origin. Please keep us posted if you make any discoveries. 

 

[M3F]

According to Richard Postman an anvil with or without a Hardie hole is no indication of when it was manufactured. He goes on to say they were probably added sometime in the 16th century. 

[gewoon ik]

check german and french (and belgian) sources. they have a lot of info as well and a rich blacksmithing history

It is old in human terms, but not that old in blacksmith history terms. 

[George N. M.]

And, you have fallen into one of the common traps of the 21st century, relying on google and other internet sources for historical research.  They are only as good as what someone has decided to digitize and post on the internet which is a fraction of what is actually available.  Yes, a few key strokes is much easier than grinding through lots of dusty pages but that is reality.  To do serious historical research you need to slog through a large university or public library and use Inter Library Loan extensively.  It tends to be slow and frustrating. And in analog/printed format language can become an issue unless you are multi lingual.  I have found great references on various things I was working on but they were in French or German, which I don't speak.

In your case there may not be much out there in any format.  Some historical questions are just lost in the mists of time.  About all I know about the history of hardy holes is that they became a common feature on London pattern anvils about 1830.  Yes, they occurred before and not all anvils had them after that date but that is a general statement.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[JHCC]

14 minutes ago, George N. M. said:

About all I know about the history of hardy holes is that they became a common feature on London pattern anvils about 1830.

I think you mean pritchell holes; hardy holes are much older.

I can't remember if the illustrations in Diderot's Encyclopedia show hardy holes, but that might be a good starting point. Diderot published his first volumes in 1751 and continued until 1772.

[Julianb]

Hello,

there won't be a "source" that will say "Square holes in anvils exist since year xy."

You could do a very extensive research into historic depictions of anvils to be at least able to say that such holes exist at a certain point in time and to a certain amount.

Anvils as a source are also not very reliable, as they are not properly datable and stamped or engraved dates don't provide a reliable date of manufacture, at least not on ones dated back to the pre-industrial age.

In general, the research on anvils and their manufacture is extremely time-consuming. Why not concentrate the video on the bottom tools, there's at least a lot of archeological material to rely on. Better to downscale a bit, than risking adding more to the enormous amount of simply wrong information and being a multiplier of hearsay and myths.

If you have any specific questions regarding anvil manufacture, you could also pm me directly, if you like. I'll try to find some publicly available sources from my pile as well, but might not be able to get to it in the nearest future.

Cheers!
Julian

[George N. M.]

John, as usual, you are correct.

[Bantou]

1 hour ago, Julianb said:

Hello,

there won't be a "source" that will say "Square holes in anvils exist since year xy."

You could do a very extensive research into historic depictions of anvils to be at least able to say that such holes exist at a certain point in time and to a certain amount.

 

I'd be happy with a rough time frame of when they started appearing. I suspect that getting anything more than that is going to be more than I want to bite off right now. 

1 hour ago, Julianb said:

In general, the research on anvils and their manufacture is extremely time-consuming. Why not concentrate the video on the bottom tools, there's at least a lot of archeological material to rely on. Better to downscale a bit, than risking adding more to the enormous amount of simply wrong information and being a multiplier of hearsay and myths.

My focus is going to be on bottom tools, specifically a hot cut hardie tool. I'm venturing into social media marketing and attempting a "here's this thing, a little history about it, now lets try and make one" format. I'll jump off into other tools as I need to make them. 

[Bantou]

4 hours ago, M3F said:

According to Richard Postman an anvil with or without a Hardie hole is no indication of when it was manufactured. He goes on to say they were probably added sometime in the 16th century. 

That's really helpful, Thank you.

I have Anvils in America on my wishlist. Maybe I can sweet talk the Mrs. into letting me get it for Christmas. 

[gewoon ik]

1 hour ago, Julianb said:

Hello,

there won't be a "source" that will say "Square holes in anvils exist since year xy."

You could do a very extensive research into historic depictions of anvils to be at least able to say that such holes exist at a certain point in time and to a certain amount.

Anvils as a source are also not very reliable, as they are not properly datable and stamped or engraved dates don't provide a reliable date of manufacture, at least not on ones dated back to the pre-industrial age.

In general, the research on anvils and their manufacture is extremely time-consuming. Why not concentrate the video on the bottom tools, there's at least a lot of archeological material to rely on. Better to downscale a bit, than risking adding more to the enormous amount of simply wrong information and being a multiplier of hearsay and myths.

If you have any specific questions regarding anvil manufacture, you could also pm me directly, if you like. I'll try to find some publicly available sources from my pile as well, but might not be able to get to it in the nearest future.

Cheers!
Julian

I can think that some regions are using anvils with hardy holes because they are "new" and need to buy more new stuff and some regions have a lot of "old" tools and traditions so they stayed longer with the older technology.

[JHCC]

56 minutes ago, George N. M. said:

John, as usual, you are correct.

Yet somehow, people are always surprised....

[Julianb]

2 hours ago, JHCC said:

I can't remember if the illustrations in Diderot's Encyclopedia show hardy holes, but that might be a good starting point. Diderot published his first volumes in 1751 and continued until 1772.

That is absolutely correct, the plates depicting anvils are available for free on the website dealing with the encyclopaedia.

[GNJC]

Well, I've just had a look at my copy of Joseph Moxon's 'Mechanick Exercises' (relevant volume 1677), this has a section on smithing in which he illustrates and explains the tools used. The diagram shows no hardy or pritchel hole in the anvil and he makes no mention of holes in the text describing the anvil. He was a careful observer and a is precise in his descriptive language; I doubt that there is any oversight in this instance so, most probably, a hardy hole was not something he was familiar with - or maybe even knew of. Either would indicate that such things were not in use on anvils from either Yorkshire, where he was brought up, or London where he was a reside as Hydrographer to the King. He traveled in Northern Europe, and would most probably have noted something so 'revolutionary' as a hardy.

In passing, I think his illustrations show a very modern-looking leg-vice and, of course, almost any tool that could be used in a hardy hole could be held in a vice. Later in the text he mentions a bolster for use during punching...

 

[Daswulf]

Ugh, that if fo hard to read lol. Normal S at the top in Smithing then f looking s's in the writings. 

[JHCC]

Interestingly, Diderot played an important role in the abandoning of the “long s”, when he excluded it from the typeface he designed for later editions of the Encyclopedia. 

[patrick]

Some of those old references show bottom tools strapped down to flat anvils. In those cases there was no shank on the tool or square hole in the anvil. Instead little horns or hooks were forged on the side of the tool. Iron straps fit the hooks and those passed under the heel/horn of the anvil and were held in place with wedges. I dont know when this technique was first used but you can find very old examples of collard work where the collar stock could have been made using a bottom swage held this way.

[Frosty]

Putting bottom tools on a "saddle" iron/steel flat bar that extends over the sides of the anvil and springs against the sides to hold it in place. 

Frosty The Lucky.