Metal cantle binding for saddles

[Dixon]

Hello folks,

My first post here, though I've been lurking for years.

I have an upcoming project that's a bit out of my depth and I'm hoping to get some guidance from people who are smarter than I am (no shortage of those around here!). Among other things, I'm a saddlemaker specializing in historical repro work. In the past, I've always been capable of making whatever metal hardware I've needed. Now, however, I'm stumped. I need metal bindings or trim to enclose the edges of cantles and horns on certain styles of saddles. They would be made of nickle alloy, brass, and light gauge iron, probably in the 16-18 gauge neighborhood. The only time I ever made one before, I had to employ my tragically primitive metalworking skills to hammer the thing out totally by hand. Not only did it take me about fourteen forevers to complete the rough forming of it, but a LOT of grinding, filing, and polishing were then required to achieve decent-looking results. I swore I'd never repeat that experience in such a labor-intensive manner.

So this time around, I've been doing a bunch of research into standard sheet metal forming practices, which is a topic I never needed to know much about until now. I'm reading about English wheels, bead rollers, and various other sorts of machinery. I've learned a lot, but it hasn't resulted in a high degree of confidence that I'll even pick the right approach, much less make smart purchasing decisions in tooling up for this. 

My question to you learned folks is this: If you had to make such a thing, how would you go about it?

I just tried attaching a rough sketch of the approximate dimensions of a cantle binding, but apparently that's something else I'm not yet smart enough to do. When and if I solve that problem, I'll post it as a reply to this. Meanwhile, I'll attempt a description. It's basically a u-shaped channel, curved to fit a semicircle about 12" across. Each leg of the U is around 1" in length, with the width (distance between the legs) around 1/2". A horn binding would be identical, except much smaller in overall diameter, of course.

Thanks in advance for your help!

 

Edit: I figured it out, so here's that sketch...

[JHCC]

First of all, WELCOME!

You don't say how you went about doing this by hand, and that would be good to know. With proper technique, you may find that doing it by hand is both faster and more authentic in appearance than using "modern" methods, and certainly much less expensive in equipment cost.

If I were making such a thing myself, I would probably start with a piece of sheet of the appropriate length and with (probably a little oversize, to allow for trimming up), bend it into a circle, and then start working in the "U"-shaped cross section, hammering from the inside with a cross-peen into a properly sized round swage on the outside. Then work the outside of the "U" over something that supports the inside of the "U" and keeps it from collapsing (like a stake fuller) to dress down any wrinkles or puckers. For steel, it would be easier to forge hot; for nonferrous metals, make sure you anneal well and often.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Dixon, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you'll have a much better chance of meeting up with members living within visiting distance.

An ENGLISH WHEEL!  You're not making auto body panels that need planishing after hammering you know. 

How good are your metal working skills? Do you have a drill press that gears down to low RPM for metal? If so you can pick some steel plate the same thickness as the inside to the binding and a hole saw the same diameter as what you're binding. Say a 2" dia, horn. Using a 2"hole saw cut a disk from the plate, aluminum will work fine for most thin sheet. If you use aluminum use a sanding disk and carefully round the edge. cut the plate the holes came from in half. I forgot to mention using a square of plate for the blank makes it much easier to make the tool. Center the hole by drawing lines from the corners, where they cross is the center. Yes?

Okay so you have two halves that sit on a flat edge together and match the hole reasonably close. round the edges of the hole, this is important! Using the disk and a couple business cards to space the halves attach them to a base. Epoxying them to a board is perfect, just don't glue the disk in too! 

Now make a lever to hold the disk so it swings into the female die. A T shape with the disk on the base is helpful, two pieces of plywood will work fine, a small bolt through the pilot hole in the disk and lever and a couple bushing spacers to hold the handles in position finishes the male die. A little plywood to make the pivot and fixing it to the base and it's ready to use.

Cut your metal strips 2x the depth of the sides of the U channel + 3x the dia. of the bead. For example 1/2" channel depth and 1/4" bead dia. means you need strips 1 3/4" wide. As John suggests leaving extra to trim is always a good idea. This isn't a precision tool it will make your Pre-Forms close enough to finish.

So, feed the strips into your "cantle binding press" carefully CENTERED and straight. This WILL take Practice! and don't try to press it all the way in one push, do it in increments so you can correct as you go. 

Oh, you'll need to lube the female die, plain old Ivory hand soap works a treat, just give the female die a swipe with a corner of the bar so it's lubed on the inside. The male die doesn't need lube, it'll help keep things straight if the strip doesn't slip on the male die.

You may need to provide a bottom to the female dies, rubber tubing filled with sand or BBs works well. It'll help smooth wrinkles in the bead if they occur and you won't need to worry about allowing for the thickness of the stock.

This would be akin to a blacksmith's closed spring die but you don't hit it with a hammer. 

I THINK that's a fair description for a home made tool, I remember seeing the things in various shops as a kid. They were used to make metal edging like cantle bindings on a Silver Saddle. It's been more than 50 years though so . . . 

Frosty The Lucky. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

 

[George N. M.]

First, welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming.  Glad to have you.

Another way might be to start with tubing of the appropriate diameter and them split it with a cutting wheel on a "dremel" tool and then create the curve, probably using a tubing bender to avoid collapsing the tube.  I'm not sure if it would work better to open the tube to a U shape before or after bending to the large diameter. This could probably be done in brass, copper, or steel.  Nickle silver or precious silver would probably be harder to find in tube shape of the appropriate diameter.  Anneal the non-ferrous metals early and often.

This is speculation, not experience.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[Rojo Pedro]

Me not knowing anything, would try to split a tube or fold a thin bar then flatten it before curving after which I would open it back up. Could that work?

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

Welcome from the Ozark mountains.

If memory serves me there is a thread about this. Another saddle restorer had an awful lot of insight in it. I'll try and find that thread. Maybe someone will remember it and link to it for you.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

I think this may be it.

https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/68939-pre-1900-mild-steel-vs-modern-mild-steel-any-differences-in-how-you-work-with-them/

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sail’s.
Semper Paratus

 

[George N. M.]

Didn't Crazy Goat Lady from Texas do saddle repairs/restoration.  I think she was here circa 2021-22.

[Frosty]

That's a BINGO George, Crazy Goat Lady did a lot of saddle restoration. The last time she posted was when her Mother passed away in 2020. 

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Dixon]

Wow! What a great bunch of helpful advice in such a short period of time! I'll respond to individual posts when I get a spare minute, but for now, I just want to express my appreciation for everyone's generosity in sharing your time, effort, and knowledge. That's not as common a phenomenon as it ought to be these days.

[Mike BR]

Here's one other possible approach:  Take a length of 1/2" square and bend it into the big "U" you described.  Now take a piece of 3/8" square and form it around the outside of the first piece.  Probably easiest to do this with a torch and bending wrenches (and perhaps a clamp or two).  Grind the outside corners of the 1/2" square to round them off, and sand (and maybe polish) the inside of the 3/8" piece. 

Now cut a strip of the material you're using, and sandwich it between the two curved pieces.  Hold the assembly together with C-clamps.  Then you can hammer the sides of your strip down against the 1/2" square form, heating with a torch to anneal as needed.  If you're using steel, you could work it hot, also using the torch.

For non-ferrous (especially if you're just making one piece), you could start with the 3/8" square, and trace it on 1/2" plywood so you can cut out the inner form.  You'd need to cut a series of holes so you could clamp the steel to the plywood.  The disadvantage is that you'd need to take everything apart before you could anneal. 

Keep in mind that you'll be shrinking the sides of the piece quite a bit, so you'll probably need a number of anneals if you aren't working hot.

[JHCC]

15 hours ago, George N. M. said:

Another way might be to start with tubing of the appropriate diameter and them split it with a cutting wheel on a "dremel" tool and then create the curve, probably using a tubing bender to avoid collapsing the tube.  I'm not sure if it would work better to open the tube to a U shape before or after bending to the large diameter.

I like this idea, although I'd recommend bending the tube before cutting it. Filling it with sand and plugging the ends will help keep it from collapsing. (If you have a friend with a tubing bender, that can simplify your life considerably.) Then cut around the inside of the curve, bend the cut edges out to make the sides parallel, dress the sides, and clean up the edges.

[Dixon]

On 11/5/2023 at 1:45 PM, JHCC said:

hammering from the inside with a cross-peen into a properly sized round swage on the outside. 

Thanks for your advice! The method you described is essentially the way I did it before. I had a bottom swage in the hardy hole and experimented with a few different sorts of handled fullers and such to get it roughly formed, and then hand planished the wrinkles out over a specially-made stake fuller that I forged with a top curvature that matched the radius of the cantle in question. It DID work ok, but required a rather grueling amount of time and work and, as I said, a lot of stock removal to get a really smooth final product. I'd be scared to try and estimate how much that gig paid me per hour, but it's probably around the wages of the lowest paid laborer in Bangladesh. I have no doubt that, for a more skilled smith, it would have been far less of an ordeal. My imagination started wandering around the realm of mechanical options; some sort of contraption that one could feed a piece of flat stock into, crank a handle or something, and watch a smooth, perfectly curved piece of u-channel emerge. Then again, my imagination regularly sends me on unrealistic wild goose chases.  

[JHCC]

Another possibility might be to make a matched swage and fuller connected by a flat spring, rather like this:

Except with the fuller pushing the stock down into the swage from above, thus:

If the tool isn't too deep front-to-back, you could probably work the curves in at the same time.

[Dixon]

On 11/5/2023 at 7:19 PM, Frosty said:

"cantle binding press" carefully CENTERED and straight.

Thanks! That sounds like a very workable approach, and gives me a lot to ponder.

On 11/5/2023 at 7:46 PM, George N. M. said:

start with tubing of the appropriate diameter and them split it with a cutting wheel on a "dremel" tool and then create the curve, probably using a tubing bender to avoid collapsing the tube. 

 

17 hours ago, JHCC said:

Another possibility might be to make a matched swage and fuller connected by a flat spring

Another excellent suggestion. Do you see any reason that the swage and fuller couldn't (or shouldn't) be forged to match the curvature of the cantle?

[Dixon]

On 11/6/2023 at 6:43 AM, Mike BR said:

cut a strip of the material you're using, and sandwich it between the two curved pieces.  Hold the assembly together with C-clamps.  Then you can hammer the sides of your strip down against the 1/2" square form

Another great idea. I really appreciate it!

[Dixon]

23 hours ago, JHCC said:

bending the tube before cutting it.

I think the method you and George are discussing might be the next one I try. I see so many advantages in starting with a piece of tubing.

[George N. M.]

Dixon, if you are not used to working with non-ferrous metals, anneal the tubing before you start anything else.  Heat and quench in water.  Where high carbon steel would become hard and brittle copper based metals become soft.  As you work the metal, particularly by hammering it, it will work harden and brittle and need to be re-annealled or it will crack and break.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.  We LOVE pictures.

"By hammer and hand all arts do stand."

[JHCC]

1 hour ago, George N. M. said:

Heat and quench in water. 

SAFETY TIP: whenever quenching hot tube, point it AWAY from yourself and anyone else who might be nearby. You can get a miniature steam explosion that shoots boiling water up the tube, and you do NOT want that to hit anyone.

[George N. M.]

Good point.  I learned that the hard way when I first quenched a piece of hot steel pipe.  No lasting injuries but it did get kind of exciting for awhile since it was unexpected.

GNM

[Frosty]

Ditto John regarding HOT tubing and water, don't do it! You might be able to engineer a way to let the boiling water spit away from you but it's a really B A D habit to get into

It is not necessary to "quench" copper alloys in water when annealing, letting it air cool works just fine. The main reason to quench from red is to reduce the oxidization discoloration, (fire scale). You can take care of discoloration with a pickle. No, not food, an acidic bath that reduces or cleans non-ferrous alloys. Dilute vinegar and salt, about 1c vinegar to 1 tbsp salt is an easy home recipe. Pickle in reasonably hot solution, say 150f or so. 

Dilute muriatic acid is faster but more dangerous, requiring proper PPE. 

Citric acid is another safe pickle but I've never used it so can't say what I think. 

Of course you can always polish it with BRASSO!

Frosty The Lucky. 

 

[Dixon]

On 11/7/2023 at 10:08 AM, George N. M. said:

Dixon, if you are not used to working with non-ferrous metals, anneal the tubing before you start anything else. 

Yep, annealing is certainly critical. I learned that the hard way forty years ago. It's an awful lot of fun watching an expensive piece of sterling silver crack right down the middle, especially when you've invested a ton of time on it.

Edited November 9, 2023 by Mod34
Excessive quoting