sidesaddle queen Posted December 15, 2021 Share Posted December 15, 2021 I work a lot with older mild steel on my sidesaddles.. I was wondering about the changes in composition and if there are things should or should not be done to the old metal.. do they anneal the same way?? can I weld them together ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 15, 2021 Share Posted December 15, 2021 Yes, there've been changes in recipe but you can treat the old mild same as modern mild or A-36. It should be more predictable annealing than A-36, old mild is simple low carbon steel. . . Usually, I'm sure there were batches when something odd slipped in but not usually. Long time no read. How are you and the critters doing? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 15, 2021 Author Share Posted December 15, 2021 HI!! thanks, for the quick response!! I am working with a gullet piece from a late 1890s saddle that is forged ..thick center to thin ends ..it is driving me crazy trying to reshape.. I was thinking about just annealing the whole piece and then reshaping it.. what color should I take it to?? When I repaired the tree I made it wider to fit a modern horse.. lol! not thinking about the gullet steel.. it is a biomorphic Form and the changes I need are small, but, that makes it harder.. hehehehe. it is above my skill range .. for the moment.. so I can weld a piece of modern mild steel to the old stuff for repair?? that would help a lot.. save me some time too. I have been rebuilding the whole piece if part of it was missing. I am doing great!! lots of saddle work getting done, starting to work some horses , even rode a couple... and finishing halter breaking my foals so I can sell them... it is warm here so I am playing outside as much as possible,, how are you..?? getting any forging done?? want to see a photo?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 15, 2021 Share Posted December 15, 2021 Of course, you know we love photo's. Happy to see you posting. I have some old low carbon steel and haven't noticed if it is different in forging than the new mild steel. Once I did run into some triply refined wrought iron that surprised me though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 15, 2021 Author Share Posted December 15, 2021 the rebuilt wood tree front.. with gullet iron in place, the metal goes from 1/4" in the middle tapering to 18 g at the points with curves everywhere.. lol!! you can see the forge marks near my fingers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted December 15, 2021 Share Posted December 15, 2021 The forging looks good to me, but I know zilch about saddle construction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 15, 2021 Author Share Posted December 15, 2021 the forging is the original work.. i am trying to rework it.. working small areas is not the way to go.. it is moving where i don't want it to .. not much but enough there is tiny areas of daylight i can't have that.. so i am thinking annealing all of it and making the whole thing sober will be easier to reform it.. if i anneal it to make it easier to work.. what color to heat it to? Burning it in to the wood to fit is what caused part of the damage to begin with, so that is not a choice,.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 2 hours ago, sidesaddle queen said: making the whole thing sober will be easier Agreed, in spite of what a number of people think it's easier to do good craftwork when sober. Thank you for the delicious straight line. It's pretty thin normalizing it will be fine. Bring it to red heat and let it cool in still air. Bringing it to critical temp is "proper" but it's mild steel and work hardened it hasn't formed hard carbon bonds of higher carbon steel so red heat will do. If you can a charcoal fire large enough to lay it on will heat it evenly but if you're careful a torch will work. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 16, 2021 Author Share Posted December 16, 2021 lol! sober might be better,, hehehe, i proofread it , i promise.. i am always sober now days.. maybe some wine would help.... thanks for the info.. i have read and studied but hearing it in simple terms is nice.. i only have a small gas forge.. i can heat all but 4" of the long point , but i do not need to reshape the part much so i figured it would be okay.. i wish had a torch, i know how to a torch for all kinds of things.. .. i used mine in sculpting but i gave it to an old boyfriend and never got it back.. lol!! the money from this saddle repair will buy me an new one i bought a larger gas forge but don't have it set up yet.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 Your pics and dialog bring a lot of questions to mind. Hopefully I'm not adding confusion. I'm pretty sure "mild" steel is a contemporary term and may not apply to something made around the late 1890's. Wrought iron would be more likely, or a high, medium or low carbon steel. Mild steel is a low carbon steel, but has other, more modern alloys in it. Thomas has a lot of knowledge here. Lol, it may not make any difference unless you need to match materials. When I look at the top pic, back, left side I see a bunch of holes on the surface of the steel. This looks more like something you would see in a casting. I see these in other pics as well. Arent some trees made of cast material? A spark test will answer this. It will tell you if your original tree material is wrought, cast, or a carbon steel. If the material is wrought iron or cast or a low(mild) steel, annealing won't make any difference. If its a medium carbon steel, annealing a rather large and convoluted shape is not an easy task. Also, if it is a medium carbon steel and you anneal a section, it's not easy to reheat treat just that area. If you don't, you create a stress point/line. Just my random thoughts. By the way, You are doing an excellent job fitting your piece of strap to the tree! Congrats, it's not an easy task to fit that close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 I expect Thomas knows the term used when the Bessemer process first started producing marketable amounts of mild steel, it was called something like "Bessemer wrought." That isn't the right term but sort of close. Help Thomas! Mild and wrought will work harden and normalizing will do for practical purposes. Full soft isn't necessary. I believe the holes you're looking at are nail holes to attach the wood and leather components of the saddle. If you have room or an old BBQ large enough it will fit completely, light a bag of charcoal briquettes and nestle it in the pile then cover it in a good layer, close the BBQ lid and come back the next day. It will be soft enough to do what you're doing. Actually forging wide thin sections, as in changing it's thickness is more difficult than folk expect. When you hit a piece backed against something solid like an anvil the piece thins under the hammer. Yes? That material MUST go somewhere so the piece expands around the area of the blow and WILL bend or warp the rest. An easy exercise to demonstrate this is with a piece of thin strap stock say 1/8" x 2", lay it on the anvil and strike one side just a bit inside the edge. The strap will curve more with each blow. A good subject to read about controlling this effect is "Body and fender" repair. The old school body and fender repair, not the newer method where you cut and weld to replace damage. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 It was called "Bessemer Steel" in books like "Practical Blacksmithing" in discussions on how to weld Bessemer Steel rather than wrought iron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 Wasn't there a term marketing Bessemer "mild" steel to blacksmiths as the modern wrought iron? IIRC it was marketed as almost zero C iron. I wish my memory were good enough to recall the book where I read it, almost as much as I wish I still had my blacksmithing library and could look it up and cite it. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 16, 2021 Author Share Posted December 16, 2021 frosty!! thank you, good idea! i will see if i and find and bbq around here.. the holes are the original rivet holes.. i am having to reshape the metal and make the holes line up with hole in wood and the piece of iron on the other side..lol!! shaping thin metal with different widths and thicknesses is very hard.. it really will make you think about what great talent they had doing this say and day.. some of the trees are pure works of art in wood and metal i can move the metal fine when i make repairs from scratch.. usually thinning the 1"to 1 1/2"wide metal from 11g to 18 g and curving it to fit.. i didn't want to replace this piece.. it is so well made..and i figured i would learn a lot from making work..lol!! i have 2 books on body and fender repair.. that was the only place i could find the skill set i needed to do this.. plus my son rebuilds cars so i use some of his tools too but he is new school and i need old school skills.. mild steel is a term i use because people know what i am talking about now.. sidesaddle tree ironworks are rarely made from cast iron i have one western one that has a cast front with pommel and cantle support and i have the us patent on it.. it was not popular. this is the only existing example any of us in the sidesaddle world have seen.. i have never see one with wrought iron but mine only go back to the 1830s.. the ones i seen in photos of saddles older than 1830s did not have the metal support.. just thicker wood.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIGGUNDOCTOR Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 How are you trying to reshape it now? Being mild I would think you could put it in a vise and tweak it into the shape you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 16, 2021 Author Share Posted December 16, 2021 i have been heating it up in the spots i wasn't to move but the result shifts of the rest of the metal has created issues.. lol!!! i understand the metal but can't find the correct process to make it happen i can tweak the ends no problem, i can move them cold or heat with a hand torch..but the center and first 2 bends are 1/4 thick.. it will not bend cold , the twists and turns of the piece do not really show in the photos.. i need to get a torch but though i would see if i could do it with my forge.. by annealing the whole thing i can reshape it to the new wood shape.. tweaking 1/4" thick 1 1/4" wide piece like this needs heat to do it right.. the rider's safety depends on it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 16, 2021 Share Posted December 16, 2021 The talents that made all those matching holes either worked from set patterns or (how I'd do it) make and refine the components, clamp them together THEN drill the holes and rivet as I went. That's how I put scales on a knife or similar handle. I drill the pin holes in the tang, cut matching scale blanks, clamp and drill one scale through the tang, pin the first scale and tang, clamp all three together and drill the second scale. everything is the right size and matched, pins drive through with gentle taps. EZ. PZ. What you're doing now is WAY more challenging, I wish I could come play. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 16, 2021 Author Share Posted December 16, 2021 they master tree makers had jigs and patterns ..the wood tree is made first and then the metal was shaped and riveted.. some by hand, some by hydraulics i think, i found a machine press company that made the original press for the 1830s.. !!!! here in the states!! the owner contacted when he found out what i was doing lol!! they still make a spin press that would work for me . for 10k..lol!!! i have one book on knife making, an old one,, i try to buy the oldest i can find on things.. i found some good hints.. i keep the original holes in the metal and drill the one hole in the wood first .. the one where the shape has changed the least.. then i clamp everything with torque vise grips and drill the new holes in the wood then without undoing the vise grips i set the rivets.. the metal has to make tight contact with the wood on both sides, it is kinda a rush when it works!!! lol!! there is no one in the states anymore that remembers how to do it and only 2 or 3 in the uk .. it is a lost art.. it is challenging and i bet you would really find it interesting .. there are so many nuances that have to be dealt with ..it is like a complex puzzle you can ride at the end.. !! lol!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 16, 2021 Author Share Posted December 16, 2021 frosty, what about using an old burn barrel instead of a bbq. i have one that is about 1/3 full of ash.. one side has a hole in it ,,about 10"x 8" . could i put the charcoal in there ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 Bessemer steel was "discovered" in 1856; (Or slightly earlier if you believe in Kelly!) Prior to that they had various grades of real wrought iron---the highest grades tend to be "butter soft" at working temps and crucible steel which was made by melting real wrought iron and teeming it into ingots, this was usually done to get higher C steel as the extra costs only made it worthwhile for high grade steels. Note that while the Bessemer Process was patented in 1856, decades later smiths were still arguing about how Bessemer steel should be worked and used. (You can read some of them in "Practical Blacksmithing" 1889, 1890, 1891). The problem with using real wrought iron is the higher the grade the harder it is to identify in the scrap stream and using lower grade WI in place of HG WI can cause a lot of issues. I have noticed that in general clean freshly smelted steel seems to work softer than the mixed steel remelt produces. So old 1018 may seem a lot softer than modern A-36 in the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 Sure, if it'll lay flat in the burn barrel it'll work fine, you can even leave the old ashes. No need for lump charcoal, briquettes are fine, you aren't trying to bring it to welding or even critical temp and a pile of briquettes is enough. Or, you could cut up a bunch of storm debris, old pallets, etc. and use that. Red heat and a slow cool. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 17, 2021 Author Share Posted December 17, 2021 thanks thomas!! i just put that book in my amazon cart!!! frosty.. the gullet piece will fit i check it before i asked.. i was planning to leave the old ashes , i can't get them out.. they are a hard brick.. i have tons of oak and pecan branches on the ground everywhere.. the record breaking freeze last winter killed most of our southern white oaks and damaged the pecans.. the recent high winds dropped more wood than i will ever need.. most is going into a big burn pile.. i hate to burn like that but there is just so much!! thanks again!! i am learning so much on this site!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted December 17, 2021 Share Posted December 17, 2021 Find a local blacksmith that wants to make lump charcoal? "Practical Blacksmithing" is the 19th century form of the internet forum: it was a journal for blacksmiths and is a real period piece with folks talking back in forth about new improved tongs to hold plow points while reforging them and "that way is good but my way is better to do....." It is not a good book to try to learn how to smith; but if you are doing later 19th century stuff it is a gold mine of how things were done back then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidesaddle queen Posted December 17, 2021 Author Share Posted December 17, 2021 i have lots of good books on learning the how to.. i love history, so i already have lots of old books on blacksmithing, so i am sure i will love this one,, No local blacksmiths near me.. the closest is 100 miles, 1 1/2 hr drive and he has the same dead oaks as i do.. my brother lost 100s of them. i lost 3 that are over 200 yrs old.. one is covered in burls.. i am hoping to get some of them cut off and debarked. it is a shame.. more down wood the we can ever use.. i do have a fireplace and use it there but it is 80 degrees here right now. lol!! i will have fun with the burn barrel and clean up my place at the same time.. i was looking for a reason to put metal in burning wood.. i love wood fires.. lol!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted December 18, 2021 Share Posted December 18, 2021 Lots of SMALL pieces of wood, you aren't bringing it to forging temp, just almost normalizing. Yeah, what blacksmith doesn't like fire? Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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