Forging press build-looking for advice along the way

[swedefiddle]

Good Morning,

Rating for a press is ???/lbs. per square inch of effort. When you use a taper or a blade shape push head, you are multiplying your push tonnage. If your contact surface is half of one inch square, your working tonnage effort multiplies by 2. In other words, if the Press is rated for 30 Tons per square inch, x2, equals 60 Tons per square inch of contact surface. You MUST KEEP your pushing stick absolutely straight. If you try to push at an angle, you will be making a loaded gun. The projectile will not give you any notice of when or where is may travel to. If a piece of a human is in the way, it will go right through the human part, without caring.

This is the part that hobby creators forget about. The potential for a moment of failure, is enormous!! Beyond patching with a band-aid or a triangle bandage.

Oops, Sorry, I made a mistake!!!!!! Dead is still dead!!!

Neil

 

[Frosty]

Okay, got it Neil. You're talking about the work being done between the dies not the machine itself. You are absolutely correct though a little too dramatic to be clear. There's also the difference in Canadian and US English to add to the confusion. 

We'll talk about safe operation, hazards and precautions. I was thinking about the machine not using tools under the dies, that's my bad I appreciate the warning. We WILL discuss it, your input is welcome.

Frosty The Lucky.

[bubba682]

MG thats pretty hevi plate as long as your weld are properly laid in that will hold the world up what are you using 7018 stick. My press in comparison is a h frame design i used 4''x4'' 1/4'' steel with 1'' press base, 1/2'' die plates,lots of gussets,16gpm pump,5hp motor ,5 gal res, 5''piston with a 10'' stroke . I'm in around 18/19 ton i make everything from bowls to Damascus.I my opinion they work best if you gettin 4 seconds and inch on speed for travel till ya start your main squeeze so you don't loose your heat.To me that speed means more than tonnage and it will save you money on material not that your goin to change up now cause ya got all your material.I'm just saying you don't need monster tonnage to move hot steel they are fun to make and work great either as a hobby or professionally.Have fun building it and keep posting pics....

[Marinegrunt]

All good points, Neil. I definitely respect the power and dangers of equipment. 

I am using 7018, Bubba. I have a 50 pound can of ⅛" but also picked up some 5/32.

I should get some pretty good speed with the pump I'm using. What kind of bowls do you make? I'd like to see a picture of that. Sounds interesting.

I'll keep posting pictures along the way. I still have to order the valve, filter, and then figure out hoses and fittings. Do I want a valve without the detent and one that springs back to center?

[bubba682]

 I am no hydraulics expert when i built mine i went to a pro shop for a system that i installed but mine will hold the piece im working on say for twisting damascus if that helps.My system is basically a log splitter set up in an h frame but its works pretty slick and most of my dies are made out of low carbon steel cause of price .I don't know what the price of hose and fittings are down in the states but it wasn't cheap up here lol.My press has been squishing for four or five years now when i built it i was worried about galling on the risers because of piston not being perfectly centered.So far so good i used a level a square and measuring tape and a bit of gun tape so what im saying is you can have some play in the movement for an h frame.Are you going h frame or are you using 2 pieces of angle with the die base running between them till it hits the stop,i'm not familiar with Bateston? book or press i used Randys book.

[Marinegrunt]

I added a larger pump to my log splitter which then needed a larger tank so I had to buy longer hoses. I swear the insides must be gold plated with the price tag. I'm hoping I can buy some pre made hoses from a farm store for the press but we'll see. That was a year or two ago so prices are probably even higher now. Not looking forward to seeing the bill if I need custom hoses.

I'm using 3" x 5" x 3/4" angle. There are 4 pieces that will sandwich the slide, top, and bottom plates. I would post a picture of the cover of the book but not sure if I can here. I'll post a pic of mine dry fit together this weekend so you'll get an idea of the style. 

[Candidquality]

Forget where I found them, but there are places that will make custom hydraulic hose lengths with the exact connections you need, and prices are reasonable.  Can be much better quality than premade and of course you are not limited to what someone feels like stocking.  Check the phone book for hydraulic hose. 

Sometimes they will even be interested enough to want to drop them off when completed to see what you are working on. And if anything does fail they will stand by their work.  

[Marinegrunt]

I guess I'd be better off buying quality hoses from the get go. Plus, they'd feed perfect too.

I did a dry fit before wracking a little off the slide. With the ram fully extended I have a 3⅝" gap. Figure I'll take 1⅜" off the slide and that will give me the 5" gap for 2" dies mounted on ½" plate like Candid mentioned earlier. Is there any reason I should do a 4.5" gap just so it can't fully extend if I don't have any work piece in it? Not sure I'd ever need to do that but figured I'd ask before I cut the slide.

After that I'll be ready to tack the other angles in.

[Frosty]

Call around to earth moving contractors and find out who has the best hydraulic services near you. A soil sampling drilling company is a good one to ask, our drills had a few hundred yards of hydraulic hoses, pipe, etc. I was always having hoses made and replacing fittings. 

Were I building it I'd only have two short hoses from the pump to the valve body to cushion shock loading and run pipe to the ram. No flex to suck up power and much lower chance of leaks. Leaks in a hydraulic system can be DANGEROUS. Heck, thinking about I'd probably spend a little more and get a pump with an integral valve body and plumb it all in steel pipe. Provided sticker shock didn't dissuade me of course.

Of course that's just me.

You ARE building an H frame press and it's over built enough to forgive some slop. 

About Neil's warning about flying tools from between the dies. A press certainly CAN spit tools like a watermelon seed from between your fingers. This is especially possible under a treadle hammer or power hammer. You MUST keep the tool aligned with the direction of the ram's travel, get it cocked off and B A D things can happen. For example it can flex a piece of tool steel like a bow stave and send it flying like a bullet OR shatter it and send shrapnel everywhere. 

The saving grace of a hydraulic press is the speed. They move relatively slowly especially when contact is made so you'll have a little warning if you are PAYing ATTENTION!!! You'll also be working mostly HOT steel so tools will be driven into the stock rather than skidding off a HARD surface. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[bubba682]

So if im lookin at it right your cyl will be pushin down on the dies my pushes up but that don't mean anything its more about preference your frame is well built  the welds i see look good from the pics so as long as they are clean and the fusion and penetration are good there good .I went with 2''x4'' flat dies and 1''x4'' fullers to take advantage of the force multiplier adv go with the size you feel give the best squeeze for your tonnage. I also put wheels on my base to move mine around the shop if i had my time over i would of mounted it to a fixed base and made it smaller presses don't have to be huge.Put some kind of shield,wraps or both on your hoses to protect them from hot steel reminds me as  i got to finish my foot control set up its only been two years since i forgot to finish it lol.The one thing i find in common when guys get into this its tonnage is the concern  you have more than enough to do what you want to do. Speed i think is more important cause its your dies that do the work the hotter the steel stays hot the easier the dies move it and less tonnage is needed which saves guys money especially as a hobbyist.Probally alot of guys won't agree with my last sentence but once your set up and running awhile let me know you think between speed and tonnage .Now a pro shop  might disagree but im just a hobbyist thats what mine was built for anyway let me know what you think.... 

[Frosty]

The only real difference between top or bottom die moving is total machine height and the stock not moving while being mashed. The second is just a matter of getting used to the first is a rafter height issue.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Marinegrunt]

Yeah, I decided to go to down just as preference. I'm sure either way would've been fine but it just seemed like it would be more comfortable without the work piece moving. Then again, I'm just a hobbyist so probably doesn't matter. 

Haven't had a chance to do much work on it. I do have the last two angles tacked in place. Will probably do another dry fit and then weld it all out. I need to order the valve so still. I'm anxious to get some more done on it but have been busy.