Forging press build-looking for advice along the way

[Marinegrunt]

I'm in the process of building of a press so thought I'd start a thread to document it in case it can help others. I also have some questions to ask and sure I'll have more along the way. It's going to based off of James Baston Jr's angle iron press but I'm going to have the ram on top. I did purchase his book. It will be on a stand so I'm able to unbolt it and move it a little easier since we plan on moving in a few years. Plus, I didn't want to have to purchase a second stick of angle. I'm using 4x6x¾ angle and 12x1.25" flat bar sandwiched in between. A local machine shop went out of business and is selling off steel for $.70 a pound so that's what got me starting the project sooner than planned. The 12x1.25" bar is cold rolled which is nice. Each angle is now cut to 60". The bottom and top cross plates will be 12" tall as will the slide. The bottom will have an two additional 12"x1.25" plates sandwiching the middle. The slide will be sandwiched and bolted with two 8" tall x 1.25" thick plates. Same with the top.

For the stand I have a couple pieces of 2x6x¼ c channel that will be the "feet" and have wheels. The support for the press will be dual 2x4x¼ c channel with a 1.25" gap between them. (Just because I have some laying around) I might put a ¼" plate across the top and sides just to cover the gap. That should put my dies at about 40". I'm 6' tall so does that sound about right? I'll then have to figure out tank and motor placement but plan on having some thin gauge plate to protect them. I'm hoping I can do the motor and pump below the tank in back (or vice versa) so I can get in between the feet a little in front to get me closer to the dies. That might change once I start building, though. I have a 5" x 10" ram, a 7.5 hp 1800 rpm motor, and a 22 gpm two stage pump. I purchased a 20 gallon tank but wish I would've went smaller now. Would a 10 gallon tank work okay? It will only be for hobby use so I don't see it being used for hours in end.

I do have a question about the slide. The inside dimension of the press will be 10" wide. I have some 1"x2 wide bar stock that will be the guide rails. They will lay flat against the angle on each side with a piece of 8"x7-15/16"x1.25" welded to the 1x2 guide rail bars. Two of those will be bolted through the middle slide plate. How much clearance does the slide need or should I just dry fit it tight? Or, should I shim it a little when welding? I planned on leaving that 1/16" so each side will have 1/32 of clearance but not sure if that is too much. I haven't cut the 8x7-15/16 yet. Figured I'd better ask first. 

Will this valve work okay? It sounds like I don't need a detent so thinking this will work well.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Valves/Directional-Control-Valves/1-Spool-20-GPM-Prince-RD-2575-T4-ESA1-DA-Valve-9-6765.axdOne last question. Do I need a magnetic starter? I installed one on my 5hp compressor so assume I'll need one here. I've seen magnetic starters with manual push button on/off switches. Can it double as a power switch? If not, anyone have a source for a good power switch?

I have a few cuts left on the 12x1.25 flat bar but I'm getting there. I've been using a 6" cutoff wheel so glad I'm almost done with that part!

I appreciate any advice. Thanks

 

 

[Candidquality]

I don't have any answers to your questions as I've not looked for how to build one before that book was written, but if you don't mind I'll follow along.  Rebuilt a hammer a long time ago, and definitly enjoyed working with it afterwards.  

nice running into right priced materials for sure.  Hard oart is usually pulling the trigger, so the rest should be easy now.  

[Marinegrunt]

Please follow along! Thanks! They more people I have keeping an eye out the better. I'm not new to welding and projects but I'm far from a pro. I was a Boilermaker at one point so do know how to weld and do some fabrication. I have a pretty good idea of what I'm doing but always helps having others point things out that I'm not aware of.

I'd love to see that power hammer you restored. I'm new to blacksmithing and knife making but definitely love any and all equipment.

I started assembly yesterday. Didn't get too far into it but have the base and the upper and lower cross plates tacked in.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard, glad to have you. I've been hoping for some plan or working drawings. We don't speak the same jargon where fab is concerned so anything I visualize is almost undoubtedly wrong. A pic of the end of the segment pictured would be much more revealing of it's structure. I "THINK" I have a handle on what I see but I won't guess. A hydraulic press is a potential bomb in catastrophic failure mode so my conscience won't let me. 

And please give your dog a Frosty ear scrunching for me.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jimw3326]

40" may be a little low. I'm 5-8 and my ironworker is at 46" and it would be a little more comfortable at 48. Also, I don't think you'll want to get to close to the dies with a hot piece of metal.

[Marinegrunt]

Thanks for the welcome, Frosty. I'll try and throw some drawings together or atleast some scribbles. It's pretty much going to be like the red one on the front of James Batson's book just flipped upside down and mounted on a frame so the cylinder is on top. It'll be beefier because I was able to use ¾" angle and 1.25" flat bar. Once I get the other 2 pieces if angle sandwiched together it'll make more sense.

I already have the stand built, Jim but it sounds like I might want to add another 10" to make the dies sit higher. It shouldn't take much effort to extend it to bring it up. Thanks for the suggestion. 

Here's a picture of the bottom. I still have to attach the other two pieces  of angle to sandwich the big pieces of 1.25" flat bar. The while press is laying horizontal. 

 

Here's the stand. The motor will be mounted on bottom so still have to add some c channel or angle. The tank will be on top in the back. The motor will be under center or just a tad forward so should help balance out the weight of the tank. Both will be covered with some thinner gauge plate to protect them. 

[Frosty]

Thanks, I've got the picture now comparing with the cover pic on Batson's book. So far so good.  

Here's something to think about. When you're forging every second between forge and press counts in temperature drop. Meaning you'll be moving fast between the two and the wide foot of your stand looks an awful lot like a trip hazard from here.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Candidquality]

Was a 50# little giant.  Unfortunately no photos I can find from 91. I survived a few disasters, but my photos did not.  

Learned the joy of babbit bearings.  

 

I get the additional footing length as you are flipping the cylinder on top and the center of gravity is jumping way up.  But like Frosty, I agree thats a good way to trip.  I would recommend finding a way to counterweight the back and slide those supports to the rear.  No reason anything should be in front further out than needed for your foot controls.  

 

[Purple Bullet]

 

16 hours ago, Frosty said:

the wide foot of your stand looks an awful lot like a trip hazard from here.

I think it looks worse than it is because it is sitting on something in the photo. If that channel is only an inch deep I don't know if the gain in avoiding the trip hazard would be worth the rebuild. As you get a workflow going you tend to step in the same places and your feet kind of remember where to go. I deal with worse in my shop all the time. I'm not saying Frosty And Candidquality are wrong, but if you are wearing the right shoes, you aren't going to stub your toe, and the rework may not be worth the effort. Good to remember for the NEXT project.

[Marinegrunt]

All are very good points. I kind of based part of the design off of a press made by a guy named Javos that was posted on another forum. His base has 4 corner posts so kind of like a small square table top. My thinking was with my design it would be easier to get closer to the center to change dies and to the work if need be. Maybe I could add corner posts if it becomes a trip hazard? I also have other equipment on wheeled bases so could position them to prevent it from being a hazard. I'm afraid if I move the press too far forward it will be a tipping hazard even with counter weight. I'm not sure if I'll have much room for counterweights. I'll also need the foot control to be set back from the press so the feet would give me something to mount it to. 

There's 20" between feet. The front feet stick out about 14" from the front edge of the vertical support. The back feet stick out about 16.5". Total length of feet are 40".  Any thoughts on taking about 4" off the front of the feet? That could help some but not sure if that becomes a tipping hazard. I am going to add some large bolts upside down as levelers. It won't get moved often but wanted the option. Maybe if I have to pull a vehicle in the garage to work on it. We might move in a few years so one day the feet may come off and will be bolted down. A piece of plate might be better at that point instead of the c channel. 

As far as footwear I do have one pair of tennis shoes that have been worn once in 5 years. Steel toe boots for me. :-)

This is exactly the kind of advice I was hoping for. Keep em coming. It always helps to have multiple people's opinions on projects. Thanks

 

[Frosty]

Trip hazards are always on my radar in the shop, any shop.  The only way I know of to reliably diminish a trip hazard is with a acutely tapered edge so a boot can't catch. My preference for a base is plate steel with an acute edge ground smooth. At best smooth enough to slide your foot across and it not catch. I suppose a person could bury the feet flush with the floor surface but that's on the silly side for a home shop eh? 

If you weren't planning on keeping it mobile it could be tied it back into a wall. The downside with that is access through the dies, the wall would get in the way at some point, say you wanted to punch and drift the center of a bar. 

I'm not faulting your build, trip hazards are just a thing that sticks out in my mind and might be mitigated.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

 

[Marinegrunt]

I know you're not faulting the design, Frosty. You're giving great feedback which is why I started this thread and I greatly appreciate it. I'd rather make changes now rather than down the road after painting. I'm definitely open to all feedback and know it's nothing personal. Heck, I'm open to it even if it is. :-)

I did just run into my first mistake. I planned on having 10" of space between the slide and bottom plate. The cylinder is 10". As of now the space between the plates is 9". I have a couple of options. Either leave it alone or take an inch off of either the slide plate or the bottom plate. The bottom plate would drop my die height by an inch. Keep in mind that both the slide and bottom plate are going to get two more 1.25" plates to sandwich the middle so will be plenty strong. Since the bottom plate doesn't have a hole in it for the cylinder it probably makes the most sense to cut that one. It is already welded in place which makes it a little more difficult but shouldn't be too bad with the angle grinder and Sawzall. 

Or, do I go ahead and take 2" off so I have 11" between. I figure a couple ½" die plates would make up the gap. (I shouldn't asked about this from the get go)

Or, do I leave it alone at 9" which would be 8" max if I use ½" die plates? (Actually less because of the actual dies)

I'm sure height will depend on what I plan on making but would like it to serve most purposes. For now it'll mainly be used for Damascus but just don't want to cut myself short for future use.

I guess the question is, what's a good max distance between dies?

 

 

[Marinegrunt]

Actually, scratch removing the inch or two from the bottom plate. I was visually just removing an inch from the 10" and not where it's sandwiched between the angle. The slide wouldn't make it all the way down doing that. I'd have to cut the whole thing loose for the bottom. The slide is the only option unless I want to cut the top or bottom plate loose which I can do. I might just take an inch off the slide or cut the top piece loose and remove it from that. Thoughts? 

[Candidquality]

First rule is to be confortable while working.  Figure out the bottom installed die height and make your decision there.  How thick of dies will you be making?  2" dies each side gives you a 4" opening.  A decent thickness for a billet of damascus.  Now if you plan on squeezing the block at a 45deg angle like the photo, you get Less than 3" square. 

Decide on your dies thickness to get your bottom height and then how far that needs to be above.  You need 10" of travel with dies installed.  No need for the plattens to touch.   

[Frosty]

Is there some reason you can't turn the frame over? I don't see a problem with torching a couple inches out of the wide plate for necessary space.

Set the bottom die's working height by standing in a relaxed position in the boots you wear in the shop and hold a book at a comfortable distance to read. That is a decent maybe good working height for forging.

We use a similar method for calculating the best height for OUR anvils, as in the individual's anvil. It's an ergonomic height that allows the smith a full swing without hyperextending the elbow and the hammer face strikes parallel with the anvil face naturally. That working height is an area between the smith's wrist and knuckles while standing straight in work shoes. There is a fine tune distance, knuckles are better for strikers, helpers swinging sledge hammers and using top tools. Wrist height is more appropriate for solo smithing and fine work, it's a good distance for knife making and finish work.

On a power tool like a press or power hammer you want a position where you can comfortably hold the stock and top tools and have good visibility.  Everybody's different but for me this is just a bit above waste height and the mid-distance lenses of my trifocals.

Next time you undertake a project like this, DRY FIT everything before welding it! Seriously place the ram at least better if you have the dies or mock them up with wood. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Marinegrunt]

Thanks Candidquality, That makes sense. I think I'll take the bottom plate down to 8" from 12" and take an inch off the slide. That will put the opening at 14" which sounds about right for 2" dies. The plans in Batson's book leave 8" of space for an 8" cylinder stroke so I was shooting for 10". The plans also call for 8" x 1" plate so it won't hurt anything taking 4" off the bottom plate. Plus, I'm using 1.25" plate and ¾" angle instead of ½" so will still be stronger than the plans in the book. Or, it would be easier to just take 4" off of the slide and make it 8" tall.

I can always add height to my stand to get the working height of the dies higher so can adjust that before final assembly.

[Candidquality]

Think Frosty was writing while you were replying to me.  He gives way more detail... as usual. 

[Marinegrunt]

Plan is to remove 4" from the bottom. The other 2 angles aren't welded at all and just clamped. The other two are not completely welded out.

So, 4" cut from the bottom, 2" from slide, then dry fit it together with cylinder, and attach some wooden dies. With 2" dies mounted to ½" plate that will give me a full 10" stroke. Does that sound more feasible as far as slide/die spacing?

I appreciate the help.

[Candidquality]

Sounds about right.  As far as I can picture.  Once you get it in place just make sure it all stacks up the way you think before you hit the welder again.  

[Frosty]

Much better. Not that I know what good spacing and such is but your procedure is more sound. It's so much better to dry fit, measure and test clearances than to keep saying I THINK and is this good? When it's connected to the frame during the dry fit you can extend and retract the ram with compressed air, give it a squirt of oil first and BE CAREFUL as in just feather the air to it. Give it 100psi and it'll slam open or closed with all the force hydraulics would at that psi.. Hmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

[swedefiddle]

Good Mourning,

Is this a Lesson? Is this Confusion or Confision?

The pressure of Hydraulics makes Steel talk, in creaks and groans and sometimes explosions! Why are you making a light weight Hydraulic Bomb?

Neil

[Marinegrunt]

18 hours ago, swedefiddle said:

Good Mourning,

Is this a Lesson? Is this Confusion or Confision?

The pressure of Hydraulics makes Steel talk, in creaks and groans and sometimes explosions! Why are you making a light weight Hydraulic Bomb?

Neil

The design is based off of James Baston's design but using ¾" angle instead of ½" angle and 1.25" plate instead of 1" plate. I was originally going to use a 12" tall bottom plate even though his calls for an 8". The only change I'm making is going down to the same size he has in his plans. His plans called for 8.5" between the slide and bottom plate for an 8" stroke cylinder. I was originally going to go with 10" without dies using a 10" stroke. The only change I've made is a larger gap between so I have a full 10" stroke with dies after some good advice above. Not confusuion just a small change to the plans to allow for more distance in between. Other's have built the exact same design so not sure it's a lightweight bomb. This one should be stronger than the design in the book with the materials used. How much so? I'm not sure but it won't be weaker. I don't mind being critiqued, though. If you see a weak point I'm all ears.

[Frosty]

I wish Neil had explained what he meant. I don't see anything in the structure that would store energy to fail explosively if something broke. The original design is overbuilt and yours is way overbuilt. Neil might have been yanking your chain. 

Believe me we've seen some home build hydraulic presses here that were indeed bombs waiting for a weld to fail.

The weakest link I see in your plans is the hole where the cylinder will hang but seeing it'll take loads in compression it's just fine. The ram in tension is the only weak direction and you're not pulling anything but the weight of the top die and guides. No issue.

I don't recall what's the piston diameter?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Marinegrunt]

Yeah, my missing inch did make me look like a buffoon so maybe he was basing it off of that..lol. I do appreciate his concern. I definitely understand how dangerous a press can be. I've considered adding ½" thick triangle gussets down the inner part of each angle for added support. It's probably overkill, though.

It's funny. I was laying in bed last night wondering how I could extend the ram without having the hydralics all hooked up. I was actually going to search for it but you read my mind.

The cylinder is 5" with a 2" rod. 10" stroke

I have a 7.5 hp 1760 rpm motor.

Pump is 22 gpm.

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulics/Hydraulic-Pumps/2-Stage-Log-Splitter-Pumps/22-GPM-Dynamic-2-Stage-Pump-GP-CBN-220-P-C-9-7970.axd

I have a 20 gallon tank and also a 10 gallon. Both will fit but 10 gallon would fit better. From what I've read a 10 gallon should be fine since I basically have an 11 gpm pump.

Was able to get the bottom plate cut to size after work. Just have to take 2" off the slide and then I'll dry fit it together. I have some more things on the honey do list so it'll be slow going the next few days.

[Frosty]

That should make almost 25 tons. At full extended the cylinder only holds 196 cu/in and a US wet gallon is 231 cu/in. Fully retracted it holds 165cu'in. add the pump all the hoses and valves probably only holds maybe 1.5 us gal. A 10gal reservoir is more than enough capacity. If you find a wide narrow one that has more surface area it should provide plenty of cooling.

Do NOT forget a filter! The screen on the pickup end is not nearly enough to keep its innards clean.

Your pump will provide way more flow than the press can possibly require, even if you just cycle it up and down without pressing anything. The excess flow it isn't using will bypass over relief and return to the tank. When you raise the die or lower it the fluid in the other side of the piston returns to the tank. All this happens through two hoses the pressure circuit and return. 

It all happens in the control valve, the hoses just carry it to and fro. 

Frosty The Lucky.