Thoughts on guillotine fuller dies for a project

[Shainarue]

I looked around on google for a bit and didn't find anyone doing it - but not sure if it's because it's not useful or if it's because no one has talked online about it.

So here's my situation:

I'm practicing doing pineapple twists on both ends of a 4" length of 1/4" bar stock. Ultimately, this will serve as the guard for an Arkansas Toothpick knife my local buddy is making for his coworker. He reached out and asked to collaborate and have me make the guard with a pineapple twist since he mostly does just knife work. He didn't have any exact measurement guidelines for me yet so I'm guessing with the 4" by 1/4" and figure if I can get it pretty consistent with that then it should transfer relatively smoothly to different dimensions.

It takes SO LONG to fuller in the grooves 8 times twice! So I got to thinking if there was a way to do it faster. I don't have a treadle hammer nor do I want to make one right now. I thought maybe I'd make a die set for the guillotine which has a top & bottom matching fuller. Add a u-shape of stock against the frame to act as a fence that positions the bar stock at center under the fuller die. Slide the bar in, whack the top. Flip 180, whack again to keep it even - since guillotines rarely push metal the same top & bottom. Then I'd end up with a groove on each side in the same time it took me to do one side. And probably faster since I'm currently using the hold fast and hand-held (vice gripped) fullering tool.

I did also consider a spring swage with the matching fullers but the guillotine dies are more versatile for future projects where the spring swage would be a one-use tool.

Anyway, can you think of any reason this wouldn't work like I'm expecting it to? 

[Glenn]

Look for a brick cutter or brick chisel.

And holder for the brick chisel

[Shainarue]

Haha, I actually use a brick chisel in the hardy hole as my hot cut. It's too long to use as the cutting tool for this project though. 

But what I'm asking is about a two sided tool so I can make the groove on two sides in one heat. I already have the scrap to make the dies, and wouldn't have to purchase anything. 

But if there's a reason it wouldn't work, then I'll use the die blanks to make a butcher for the tenons I'll be making in class in a few months. 

[anvil]

You might know this, but I thought I would add a note of caution.  Spring fullers and  guillotine type tools tend to jump when struck so they may strike twice and ding your work.  

[natkova]

What about building spring fuller?

It goes in hardy hole

[Shainarue]

Anvil, I had noticed the spring fillers jump when I see others use them. I had not noticed it on the guillotines though. 

Natkova, I did also consider a spring fuller with the matching fullers but the guillotine dies are more versatile for future projects where the spring fuller would be a one-use tool.

 

[George N. M.]

Shaina, you are correct that spring fullers are a PITA to use unless the lower limb is secured in some way such as a hardy hole, a hold down of some sort, a clamp, or held in a vise.  You will find a guillotine tool to be much much more versitile and, as you say, capable of helping on other projects with different dies.  You can get some rebound or bounce with a G tool though.  So, either hit it hard enough the first time that it does not need to be reset for a subsequent blow or be quick at resetting the upper die in the approprite postition.

GNM

[Shainarue]

Thanks everyone for the input! 

I finished punching and welding two tools today. One being the guillotine frame and the other being an adjustable holding jig that will hold my bar in place between two pieces of angle iron while I chisel on it. 

I'm gonna try the jig first. I still have to grind the dies to shape so the guillotine isn't ready for testing. 

[anvil]

Both work. I prefer spring fuller type tools over guillotine type tools. I hand hold them, not hardy hole type, and figure out how to secure the piece I'm working on. This solves a lot of the bounce and extra blow problem. Usually some variation of a stand and a heavy weight works to hold the work piece. My 25# lil giant really works well here as a modern striker. I can hand hold the tool and the work. My foot controls the hammer.  

No critique meant. Enjoy tour tool!

[Frosty]

Shaina: I've given up fullering both faces of twists at the same time. Guillitone or spring fuller edges don't stay aligned, especially after the first twist and I keep ending up with wonky incised lines, sometime the edge rolls off when struck.

My veiner has a curved edge like an ax blade which lets me secure the piece with a hold fast, start the incision and roll the veiner forward in the groove. The veiner doesn't care if the stock is actually flat or square and it takes much lighter taps from a heavy-ish hammer to make the vein. 

It almost looks like using an engraver in action. I don't work 1/4" sq but I can incise 4" of 2 faces of 3/8" per heat without rushing. Can't waste time but I don't have to rush.

I'm talking top tool over the anvil face, no springs, moving dies, etc. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

Thank you Frosty for your experience based insight. As fate would have it, after more discussion with Daniel it looks like I'd be more likely to be working on 3/8" anyway so that's really good to know your experience with the same size. And mine is about 1.25" on each end of the bar with 1.5 empty space in center. So I need to be careful not to go too far. I'm thinking the jig is likely going to be the winner here. I might just save my dies for the butcher set I need for creating the shoulder of the staple for the tenons in the Level 1 class coming up.