danielj Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Hello all, This is my first post. I am interested in building a minimal set up to learn ironwork. Specifically, I would like to design some pieces gardens. Low ornamental fences with grilles/scrolls, and maybe work my way up to archways, gates, and possibly a large pergola for growing vines on. I know this is a lot, but this is just to give an idea of the area of my interest. I love some of the Victorian and Art Nouveau style designs, and I am interested in learning the techniques required to create these styles. Ideally, I would like to be able to work with a minimal amount of large expensive machinery, and I like the idea of making tools where possible. From what I've seen, smithys can vary quite a bit depending on focus and style, so I was just hoping to be pointed in a good direction for my purposes. I am open to taking classes to learn techniques, but they seem to be somewhat rare and/or expensive, and in the case of welding, geared towards electricians. I am located in Southern California. Any advice to start? Yesterday, I stumbled upon a YouTube user whose work I really appreciate (video below). He seems to do all the work without a forge. I'm wondering if this might be a good place to start for my sort of applications. He uses relatively few tools, makes his own twisting machines, etc. Mostly, I'm just wondering if I could get by learning without having a huge shop full of machinery. I know it's a bit of a big question, but any pointers would be appreciated, as well as books you would recommend for beginning this kind of work. Examples in photos below. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Welcome from the Ozark mountains. We won't remember your location once leaving this post. If you add it in your profile it will show with every post. At the very least you would need a welder, scrolling jigs, hammers, anvil, metal cutting band saw, without a forge some way to heat metal like a propane/oxygen torch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 The project in the video was done using a hammer, ruler, soapstone marker, grinder, vise, bending fork, and welder. The rest is just putting small pieces of metal together to make a much larger project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielj Posted February 27, 2023 Author Share Posted February 27, 2023 I appreciate the list. As for being able to make scrolls, is it just that forging makes things faster? The YouTuber above does his work without heat, so I'm wondering what the advantages and disadvantages of each method are, or what is possible with each. I imagine a lot of the old work was done with heat which allows for more beautiful variations and ornament, but I'm still trying to understand. Thanks Glenn, much appreciated. I took down your list. I like his seemingly rudimentary setup and approach. Getting into bigger pieces -- archways, pergolas, and the like -- do you think a forge will become necessary? Trying to figure out in this kind of work when and if heat will be needed aside from welding. Do people scroll with heat because they consider it more beautiful? Or is it because the iron used here is too thick to do by hand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Hot metal moves easier than cold metal. Anything above 1/2 inch thick would benefit from being hot so it will bend easier. Only the heated area will bend easier. You can only work so fast with a hammer and once the heated area cools, it should be heated again so you can continue working. Get a block of modeling clay. Make the clay into the size and shape of the metal you are using. Use the clay to make the bends, scrolls, tapers, etc and lay out the pieces to make the project. You can easily bend and shape the clay for an exact fit. With clay you can make changes as often as you wish. Form the metal to the same shape and size as the clay and assemble the metal together for your project. When you look at books, photos, etc, do not look but see how many small pieces were used and put together. You should find many of the scrolls, bends, tapers, etc are repeated, then assembled to make a much larger project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielj Posted February 27, 2023 Author Share Posted February 27, 2023 Great idea. That seems to be a good place to start, and then I can better determine what tools will be required for the size and style of the project. One last question. For doing larger curves pieces, say an archway, how do you normally go about making the bigger curves? Would these pieces normally be machined? I mean pieces that would not fit in a forge. Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 It would depend on the size and shape of the arch, and the metal stock being used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Welcome aboard from 7500' in SE Wyoming. Glad to have you. Ornamental ironwork is a subset of general blacksmithing. It uses the same techniques, drawing, upsetting, bemdiing, and welding. So, learning to blacksmith leads directly into gates, fences, arches, etc.. There are a number of ways to do certain elements. you can make a scoll hot or cold (if it is small enough) by just bending it over the edge or horn of the anvil, using a bending fork, or using a jig. The last is good if you are having to turn out lots of pieces that are exactly the same. large curves are often done with a mandrel of some sort, either and inside one (a disk or ring of the desired size) or an outside one where there is a curve or trough of the desired diameter and the metal is forced down into it. You do not have to have a full curve, you can bend it a bit at a time. Or, you can draw an appropriate sized curve on the floor with chalk and bend the metal free hand and adjust as you lay it down and compare it with the drawn curve. Metal bends eaiser when hot. That is why we have forges (propane, coal, coke, charcoal, induction, etc.) You can do things with small bits of metal cold but it is harder and often takes longer. You can do decorative ironwork without a welder but, again, it is harder and takes longer to do it with rivets or banding/collars. However, IMO, it looks better than welded. I suggest that you find the local affiliate of the Artist Blacksmith Association of North America and join it. Look up the California Blacksmiths Association. You will learn much faster and easier working with other people. Yes, you can do it all by yourself but that is not optimum. I know, I did it that way. And back then there was no internet and all I had to learn from was books from the library and lots of my own mistakes. And watch out for BAD You Tube videos. There are some downright dangerous ones out there. I like the ones from Blackbear Forge, JPL Services (our own Jennifer), Torbjor Ahman from Sweden, and Crist Centered Ironworks. Some folk like Alec Steele but I, personally, find his presentation kind of annoying. Good luck. We will try to help and encourage you on your journey. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Great vid! Thanks. What it doesn't show is how many years it took him to be able to do those scrolls and, most important, to match them to each other. It is a great example of architectural iron done as a fabricator. Pretty rare. The tools you use are a personal choice and there is no "best" way. It all depends on you. Many come into blacksmithing with a desire to use our traditional and very simple tools,,, forge, anvil, hammer and post vice. Many discover right quick that there is a huge difference between fantasy and reality when it comes down to both learning and using these tools. With experience you can make anything you want in iron with the toolset of a fabricator, a blacksmith, or any combination you choose. My choice is to use the tools and joinery of our craft. I don't cut my tapers with a grinder, nor do I bend my finials cold, but literally every blow he made on the finials and the rest of the scrolling could be a mirror image of me at the same task. I do most of my curves as he did with bending forks and a scrolling wrench. These tools are made as a set and the sets are made to fit different size iron. The bigger the steel, the bigger the tools and the longer the handle(for leverage) will amaze you as to what you can bend hot or cold. Heres some examples. The first three are the bottom stringer on a curved rail. It started out as 1-1/4" square stock forged on the diamond, then bent hot and cold. The finial was forged hot, then cold fitted to the log. On the 3rd pic(i hope) you can see how the stringer attaches to the treads.The next is a truss, 10'x4'. The frame is 1/2"x2" and was bent with forks and wrench cold. I also did the brackets. A forged right angle and hot cut and filed detail. You mentioned a garden trellis. The last 3 are just that. The final is a small bracket. Forged right angle, hot forged finial and all other scrolling done cold over the hardy hole of my anvil. All work is done "by hammer in hand", no grinder, torch, welder etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoGoodWithUsernames Posted February 27, 2023 Share Posted February 27, 2023 Practically, I think that you could get setup with a forge and anvil shaped object much less expensively than you could if you wanted to fabricate this type of thing. With a JABOD forge (search this site for more details) and makeshift anvil you can be tapering and making scrolls, with the largest expense being your time to learn the techniques and methods. The addition of a cheap wire welder to attach these many small pieces together into larger pieces would be nice, but as mentioned can be done the old fashioned way with rivets (or bolts) and hot collars. Almost any size/shape piece can fit over an open coal forge if you can support it somehow, I would personally not recommend a propane forge for work like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielj Posted February 28, 2023 Author Share Posted February 28, 2023 Sorry about the delays in my response, I've had some issues updating my computer today. Thanks all! Thanks again Glenn. Will circle back when I have more specifics. -- Greetings George, thanks for the welcome and for shedding some light. I've taken your notes and will look into the associations. My initial thought was to get a couple books on traditional blacksmithing to learn about the various techniques and terminology. If there are any you would recommend please let me know. There is a community forge down in Orange County, so I may try to step in and get a feeling. I'm a good self-learner but this does seem like something where it would help to get some pointers. I do also like the look of the traditional collars on the work. I was just impressed by the users speed of work using cold methods and welding. I will look into the users you recommended. I was initially interested in setting up a forge, but not quite sure how if and how I will be able to make the space I have amenable. I'll be in the countryside, but may have to look into zoning etc., as we are a fire rich area... ha! There is a one car garage that is open on one end. Probably 11 feet wide by 15 deep, 8.5 foot ceilings, concrete and dirt floor. Alterable. Anyway! Great to hear from you. Many thanks again, more to come. -- Anvil, this is beautiful work. Love that truss. Reminds me of some of my grandfather's design work in the 60s and 70s. I'd like to give your response its due so will get back tomorrow. NoGoodWithUsernames as well, night all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Dan, just a short response, My blacksmithing library is out in my shop. I'll take note of some titles tomorrow. One classic is The Complete Modern Blacksmith by Alexander Weygers. I also like The Blacksmith's Craft by Charles McRaven. Books and videos and personal instruction are good but in the end it is practice of hitting hot iron for how to best learn. A lot is hand/eye coordination, like learning to play a video game. Knowing where to hit and how hard is learned only by hitting the metal. I beleive there may be an IFI thread on recommended books and videos. Also, just browsing around on IFI and reading threads that take you fancy can be enlightening. It sounds like you have a potentially decent set up. If your local zoning allows BBQ grills a small forge should be OK. You may have to shut down during Red Flag warnings. And when you are speaking to local authorities don't call it "blacksmithing" or a "forge." You are a hobby metal worker. If you ever actually turn it into a metal fabricating business that is a whole other discussion. Take it from an old County Attorney who has seen a lot of zoning and land use issues. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBones Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 My opinion of tools is they were created for a reason, to make the job faster and easier. For example a welder. You can do everything without one but many times it is much easier to use one. I find it a necessary piece of equipment. I love collars and i will use them when ever i can. I will use the welder to tack everything in place then use a collar to hide the weld. Use what tools make the job go as smoothly as it can for you. As far as what tools you will need, well i have done a couple railings and some things like coffee tables and such, not near as much as many here, but the few i have done i now have a wall full of scrolling jigs, wrenches, etc. Not to mention the tool box full of hardy tools, swages, etc. In short a lot, but you will come to them over time as you find you need them. Starting out be simple. Learn the craft. A class is a bit pricey. However if you are planning on making a profit from your hobby it is an investment. As George pointed out, everything boils down to the 7 basic skills of a blacksmith. Those skills are in everything form the simplest "S" hook to the most extravagant iron work in royal palaces. Learn those, master those and a whole world of possibilities opens up for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Forging makes changing the cross sectional area of pieces much faster and easier. It makes stuff look less "cut and paste" and more organic flow and as you can build and use a forge VERY CHEAPLY it might be a good idea to try one out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 https://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/267-jabod-just-a-box-of-dirt/ Yep... might take a look through this thread for ideas. Most of them can be built with existing scrap and dirt, a hand pump matress inflater will supply the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 May I commend to your attention the COSIRA books on blacksmithing some of which cover gate making in wonderful detail! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Excellent series, all free download's from the BAM web site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielj Posted March 1, 2023 Author Share Posted March 1, 2023 Anvil -- glad you liked the vid! He stood apart (in my eyes) even from many of the professional iron workers with huge workshops that I saw on Youtube, just for his sense of design. I am sure he is making it look easy. Yes, I imagine there is quite the learning curve. I suppose I'll start with a couple of books and try to sketch some designs and go on from there. Thanks for showing me into your world a bit. inspiring to see your work. and looks like a beautiful cabin! I imagine those rails were a bit tricky to measure out and get right. We also need a rail made for some porch steps. Perhaps if I get into it... I especially like the truss and the bracket, beautiful designs. I was imagining something like short perimeter fencing, maybe only 1.5' high, to surround a desert garden I am designing. And then possibly work up to bigger things. I'd like to first learn how to do scrolls and piece them together. Ever work with copper? Nice to hear you did all of that by hammer in hand. My feeling is to want to keep things fairly simple along these lines, at least at first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielj Posted March 1, 2023 Author Share Posted March 1, 2023 George -- many thanks! I was actually looking into getting The Blacksmith's Craft. Glad you recommend. I will look into the other as well. Initially I probably just want to set up a place to learn and then see what comes. wondering if I would even do this outside somehow. my dad told me farriers he knew used to affix a forge to their trucks and work on location. I suppose working out ventilation may the biggest issue if working under the garage roof. BBQ's should be allowed... not totally sure. it is an unincorporated area, so I think things are a bit looser. There is actually a beautiful old BBQ there with little coal tunnels beneath hot plates. sending just for kicks. with original hispano moresque D&M tiles. just finished laying the new patio. garden i want to design low ornamental fence for will be just to the right where the grape vine is. but yes, very dry and brushy in the Summer, so must be careful. ah yes, metal worker! Maybe I will send a photo of garage when I get back to give better idea. Thanks for the words Billy, this makes more sense after hearing from yall and thinking things thru a bit. And thanks to others for the resources!! You've been really helpful Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBones Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 That's a BBQ? That is cool, i would get that thing working right away. Before i quit working on transmissions we used to do the trans work for a local farrier. They still keep a propane forge on their trucks and work on site with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 1, 2023 Share Posted March 1, 2023 Since shop size and heavy equipment is part of your question, my shop was 16'x20' and I have a 25# lil giant hammer, a large post drill and a pedestal grinder for powered tools. Thanks for your comments. The truss was for an order of Nun's and the center detail is a chalice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George N. M. Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 Dan, I got out to the shop today and remembered to copy some book stuff down. I am including general blacksmithing and decorative ironwork titles. I am quoting the prices I found on Amazon. There may be chaper options. You may want to try to get them through Inter Library Loan to review before you actually spend money on them. In not particular order except how i pulled them off the shelf: Backyard Blacksmithing by Lorelie Sims $11.49 New Edge of the Anvil by Jack Andrews $25.00 Decorative Ironwork by Marian Campbell $12.00 Ornamental Ironwork by Michael and Susan Southworth $10.58 Decorative Antique Ironwork by Henry Rene S'Allemange $16.73 Decorative Ironwork of the Middle Ages and Renaissance by Jacob von Hefner-Alteneck Beginning Blacksmithing by Jim Converse $69.96 Practical Projects for the Blacksmith by Ted Tucker $37.50 Practical Blacksmithing and Ironwork by Percy Blandford $28.00 Others may have some additional recommendations or comments on the ones that I have listed. You may find some more or less useful for your needs than others. Caveat Lector. "By hammer and hand all arts do stand." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anvil Posted March 3, 2023 Share Posted March 3, 2023 For me, one of the must have books is "Plane and Ornamental Forging" by Ernst Schwartzkopf. Its about 20 bucks and easily found on line. It is a textbook for NYC high school system circa 1900. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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