Cable forging

[Pigsticker]

I just figured out what ifi meaant in these postings,,!

[Frosty]

5 blows in 15 seconds is if anything a little fast for setting the weld. Setting it is the first step and cable takes a long time to set the weld basically the first couple few welding heats is consolidating the strands, and yarns in the rope. Once everything is consolidated it will start to weld. 

Strand and fiber are synonymous between fiber cordage and wire rope. Knitting yarn stops at yarn and terminology differs as in S and Z spun. It's craft vs industry terminology but if you watch spinners the process is the same. spinning and plying are two different things done on the same machine and once plied spinning yarn has a stresses between left laid strands and right laid plied yarn which try to unravel against the lay which locks it in place.

Rope and wire rope are laid so the forces that want to unravel them are countered by the lay so they hold themselves. The only place they can unravel is at the very end where the wires, yarns and rope stop. 

I'd already been to school about rope and wire rope to figure out how to keep B A D things from happening on the drill rig by cutting and connecting rope and wire rope the "old school" way with clamps that always slip. I stopped in at Arctic wire rope where we bought our cable and manila drill rope and asked a few questions. In about 15 minutes I new a boat load of things I didn't understand and had three books about rope, splicing and such. I practiced a little and the next time on the rig I was able to cut and splice a thimble for the shackle on the safety hammer. Why YES I know how to use a marlin spike!

Nothing you can do to cable with a hammer will induce metal fatigue. You have to stretch it to it's yield point or close repeatedly but rope stretched that hard deforms alarmingly, you have to be asleep not to notice. Metal fatigue in steel cable just is not going to happen on the anvil. Once you've welded it and forged it into a  knife you BET your BIPPY you can run into metal fatigue, embrittlement from bad heat treatment or mistakes and such. Just not as cable.

Go ahead, digest some of my ramblings and give me a shout. 

Oh, setting at the fold means to start the weld at the fold. Your first blows in a forge weld set it, meaning the beginnings of diffusion between the different sides of the joint begin to exchange electrons and the metals begin to become one piece. It isn't fully welded but it's beginning to stick and will stay put unless you do something wrong. It's like glue setting it's stuck but not cured completely.

Make sense? 

You set a folded weld at the fold so flux, scale or other crud in the joint is NOT driven into the pocket and trapped. Squeezing the joint forces liquid flux out of the joint violently carrying the crud with it. Visualize squeezing a toothpaste tube, start from the right end an it comes right out, squeeze from the wrong end and . . .  Hmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

[BillyBones]

6 hours ago, Pigsticker said:

I just figured out what ifi meaant in these postings,,!

Not to be confused with FIF. (the TV show)

Hope ya stick around. Dont sweat the mod warnings like i said i think we have all gotten them at one point or another. I almost did not come back when i got mine but now i am glad i stuck around. 

[Pigsticker]

I just remembered the best part about not knowing something is not knowing what you don't know. I've just decided to stay out of the cooker til I can process all these great tips given up until this post. I'm gonna have to print them all. Only then will I restart sending strands one by one to dust heaven. Everyone and Mr Frosty thanks for your time. Unless you're a stenograher this all must have taken considerable time and effort. I've tried post a few sets of thanks (they were cuss free) not allowed by mgt but you guys and you info are awesome. I might make a little reminder workbook to bring downstairs to  forge next time . Fatique is word I used, but not sure of. I'm only one in my forge so the vernacular is driven by not knowing.  What about concerns of "distressing" material welded by strikes on the immediate prior strike. Doesn't need to be too specific, just trying to see if that can happen. Like set metal strike, drops 50 degrees to below welding temp, then one extra strike. Damaging, not worth concern, conditional etc.? And I'm sure I'll find it when I print the above but how do I know when strands are cut off material versus try to reweld. Im getting decent at chasing strands but it all could come undone in the forge. Lastly, don't I need flux/glue in the bar weld? I know it's splatter for the feet but I'm not sure of a rule that tells you in absolutes whether or not to flux. i figure rule should cover rope and bar stock? Tx again all. Gonna wash everything off today w hurricane Ian so I'll be ready by next week I hope. Thanks again guys. GREAT stuff 

Tx

 

[Pigsticker]

In my pics of way above, doesn't e the pic of the cut cable internal show welding? I know big strands aren't connected but arent the 6 strands fused to themselves

[Pigsticker]

Final thing I need to know is why I had to buy a $50 mask for g-10 but they don't use it on FIF tv show? It's not real tv and i know they have better dust collection than the breeze here but why no concern? Maybe I could do 200 layers maskless like them?

[anvil]

Heres another way to forge weld cable with a basic setup like yours, altho it does require a vice, preferable a blacksmith leg/post vice.

Take a handling length of your cable. A handling length is a length long enough to hand hold and keep your hand cool. 

Tie off the far end with bailing wire or tie wire. Take a 3" or so forge welding heat on the far end and forge about a 1" square on the end.

Now heat up a long enough piece, say about 6"-7" inches to a nice yellow heat and clamp the square end in your post vice. Now twist it tight. Keep the pressure on the tightened twist and let it cool. Now you won't get any of those snags sticking out and the twist will stay tight. 

Now take a forge welding heat about the length of your tight twist, or whatever you are comfortable with, and start welding from the far end and work up twards your hand. As you hammer, rotate the wire in the direction that tightens your work as you hammer weld it. Take as many welds as necessary, but keep in mind that the more heats taken the more harm is done to your steel, including loss to scale. Also, use your wire brush and brush it alot to keep the scale off your work. 

When your weld is past the tightened wire, cut it off at the end of the weld. 

Doing it this way keeps your wire tight which helps prevent voids and takes minimal tools, including no tongs.

[Pigsticker]

I hate wearing it but will wear if it's so deadly. Cant we make them wear them too. Only masks have been cheap starter COVID masks

[Pigsticker]

Last, last one. Can I use 20 lbs of poorly welded and well cooked cable? Would it show anything more than a 1084 powder. Most is lightly twisted. I say well cooked but I'm pretty sure not over 2100. Is that hot enough to compromise cables integrity. Thanks guys. Hope y'all are all west coast.

Tx 

Mgt look. No cusses again. 

 

[Pigsticker]

I've been spelling yal as a 3 letter monosyllabic word but it's been "corrected" to read y'all, like I'm saying yous guys or something. But that gets through???

Is that southern queens English?

[Pigsticker]

Thanks anvil, best idea on twisting yet among other good stuff 

Tx

How do I find unread posts. I think I've missed 2 this am but it's not in chronological order unless I'm just missing it.

Tx

[Pigsticker]

Last last last in one.....

 How much a sutable for a vice. In I'm seeing all the way up to $600. I've got a $50 hf or Lowe's one. Handle fell of but it's well rigged together now kinda. This would live outdoors in under stilt house covered from rain but it's ridiculously humid. I'm not a freak about it being in good or bad condition as long as it works . New sander and forge are out there now. (Sideways rain right now, Ian). Ima go unplug it!

 

I think I found how to read posts on notification.

Tx

[Pigsticker]

Veriest final one.

Does anyone know how to print just the text from a post? Tx again everyone for yesterday's voluminous lessons. It was really cool to get so much help from so many.

5000g

 

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

The only way I know of is to copy then paste into a word document. A little tedious but it works for me.

[Pigsticker]

Thank you. Sad part is it's mainly me mumbling on post but there is really good stuff from every body. 

Tx again yal 

 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

One thing I do is to bookmark the threads that interest me into a folder iforgeiron, that way I can find them when I need to review something.

[Buzzkill]

On 9/29/2022 at 5:36 PM, Pigsticker said:

I got my little forge so I could harden and forge my stainless

You really do like the deep end of the pool, don't you?

Forging stainless tends to be more difficult than mild or simple high carbon alloys, and the forging range can be quite a bit different.   To properly heat treat all the stainless alloys I've seen that are suitable for blades requires more than just a heat in the forge and a dunk in oil.  Many of them require quite high temps for quenching - around 1900 degrees F or more, but many of them also need to be held at lower temperatures for a while and then be brought up to quenching temperature to get the most out of the steel.  This pretty much requires a system where the temperature can be accurately controlled and held.  Usually that amounts to an electric heat treating oven.

Unless you are willing and able to build or buy such a device I'd recommend sending anything like that out for professional heat treating.

[Pigsticker]

The stainless part is true, just wanted a fair representation of me. Tx for all your help 

I have ruined 4" of 3/4" stainless but I guess it's obvious I never got anywhere near the necessity temps.

 

[Pigsticker]

Yesterday,someone was being very helpful and suggested a bowl swage to weld cable ends. Do you just pound it in the bowl and the newly fraying ends stay 2" ball instead of 4" ball, do you just wedge it In recess/hole dead end it inand hit other end  w a hammer, do you use long strips on side to cradle cable and the top matching piece as a hammer down shaper of 1" going to 3/4 inch or does none of this matter if I don't hit a hot enough welding temp. I currently don't hit it I think.

Tx guys 

All great stuff 

 

 

[Frosty]

Don't worry about getting the terminology right till you learn it. Describe what you mean or want to know, we'll figure it out, answer if we can and tell you what it's called. There are around 60,000 subscribed members on IfI in maybe 150 countries around the planet and translation software can be really iffy. We can figure out what most are saying. Your version of English is a piece of cake.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Pigsticker]

Hidden

BK i had been told by stainless dealer/pusher that Peter's was the place to use. All the nice stainless knives I had ready got subsequently over sanded so they never got sent in, but on the phone Peter's seemed really sharp and aware of what they're doing.( Even the phone ladies were full of answers!) I don't work there. appreciate the tip though. I swore off non stainless the night I ordered it and started my search for 4" bars of cra154.  Elevator shaft doesn't even go to the top 8-10 floors

Cussing is bad.

[BillyBones]

"Ya'll" is Hillspeak. I grew up speaking that language in the hollers of Kentucky. The question is though do you know where "yonder" and "cattycorner" are at? 

I do not like working stainless and i do not even make knives. Seems to me like it loses heat much quicker than regular old steel. 

I did not catch a bowl swage but i did see someone mention a "V" swage or half round swage to use. To use those you lay the cable into the V and hit it. The sides of the V will push the material into itself rather than splaying out on the anvil face. They are also handy for welding the ends of a basket twist. 

Check out garage sales and flea markets to find a vice.

If you are leaving your equipment outside i would suggest a can of WD-40 to spray it down with. "Water Displacement" is what the WD in WD-40 stands for after all. 

I know some smiths wear a mask and other do not when forging, i am in the do not where club but that is becuase i can not stand having my face covered. It triggers my anxiety . So needless to say that during the whole covid thing i limited my journeys to only absolutely have to. They tried making us wear a mask at my work. That lasted less than a week when they figured out it is hard to breath and way less healthy wearing a oil and solvent soaked mask for 10 hours. I also work well away from other people so we would put them on when we had to interact with another person.

Well you are definitely a southerner. Just like me and my kin when you say "Gotta go now" you spend another hour on the porch talking.  

Now that Ian has made landfall again stay safe out there. 

As a final note i am really surpirsed that we are on page 4 of this thread and it has not drifted very much. By this time we are usually talking about space gnomes and puns or some other silly stuff. 

[Pigsticker]

One of the reasons I'd switched to cable was because I knew the scales were dangerous if you made it that far. Jaylegged huh? Wasn't that blue? My childhood was of full of my great grandmothers stories of Falmouth and the likkin (?) River and Mckinneysburg. She was a McKinney.

 

[Pigsticker]

Jaylegged was old ladies line who didn't like Hoosiers either in in josey wales. Just being an 

I can't find the donkey icon on here.

I've got 6 full pages printed from this post.  They're not in the binder yet but I've got the Ziploc ready. Thanks again to all who helped, especially catching the kaowool debacle. I think the forge kit did come with red squirt and a 4x4 pack of powder. Might have been 2 juices but I didn't know what it was so I pitched it out and those Chinese boxes never se to have instructions so I never knew it was dangerous ( nothing against China)

[Frosty]

Take notes when you go to the forge so you can keep track of what works and what doesn't. Just because something doesn't work, doesn't mean it won't work perfectly for something else. And when working a problem only change ONE thing, test, observe and make notes before changing something else. If you change more than one thing at a time you'll never know what did what and sometimes they'll feed off each other and change something seeming unrelated. You end up lost until the problems luck runs out and you stumble on a fix.

No comment on throwing away half your forge liner.  

Frosty The Lucky.