Differences between German, European and American Coal Forges

[DerFeldschmied]

Happy Easter everyone!

So since I am currently working out with TWISTEDWILLOW to get my hands on a Champion 400 forge blower(thanks again to you for your help!), I informed myself pretty well about the whole Coal Forge/Forge Blower topic.

That being said, I recognized that European (or at least German) coal  forges are pretty different to those you find normally in the US and Canada, which I for myself think is really interesting. So I decided to create this thread in case someone is also interested in this topic or if someone needs help eventually identifying his forge. If this topic is in any way annoying or needless because no one cares about German and American Forge Design, then please tell me, I just thought it might be interesting.

Anyways, here are the main differences I recognized:

I. The forge pan/table.

I found out that the main frame construction is pretty different on both continents. While in the US there’s a broad variety of pressed steel, welded sheet metal or cast iron forge pans (which I personally really like), in Germany almost every forge is made out of sheet metal. They are mostly riveted out of angle iron in a simple but stable square construction. The table itself is mostly sheet metal. Sometimes they are also welded. While in the US, the legs are often made out of Pipe or even cast, here they are whether the mentioned angle iron construction or sometimes also pipe. 

II. The Firepot and Tuyere

In the US, there are often those rivet forge style pans, which only contain a grate while firepot is built up out of clay. This concept of lining a forge doesn’t exist in Germany (interestingly, lined forges are common in France but that's something for another thread). Nearly every forge available here has a square cast iron firepot with tuyere similar to the ones  champion or buffalo forge produced (yet without the overlap for the clay lining). Another difference is the tuyere. US clinker breakers often just spin on an axle, while the ones here mostly go up and down. Also US ash dumps tend to have a short, weighted lever while many ash dumps here seem to have a long lever. 
 

III. Air Supply (Ignoring bellows)

That is, at least for me, the most interesting difference. While in the US, lever operated and hand crank blowers (which came to their pinacle with the Champion 400, Buffalo or Canedy-Otto) are very common, there are really none hand crank blowers to find in Germany (In France however, they seem to be also much more common yet much smaller models than in America). Here, forges are almost always equipped with an electric or foot operated blower, which turns a flywheel and further, the fan. However, those foot operated forges are commonly just rivet forges, not stationary ones.

So, those are basically the most common differences I was able to recognize between American and European Coal Forge Design. It may also be interesting to mention that I never saw some kind of Rivet Forge in Germany or France. 
Important note: I don’t want to state those points as sure. I know that there are also varieties and exceptions and if anything I wrote here is incorrect, please correct me. Those differences were only the ones I recognized while watching the different antique markets and by reading in this forum and the german blacksmithing forum. 
 

I for myself really like and prefer the American style of forges, especially the cast iron forge pans.

Greetings!

P.S.: Especially the fact that in Germany there are almost no cast forge pans, as well as no hand crank blowers I find really interesting yet I don’t have any explanation for it. So if anyone has an idea or explanation for this, please share it!

P.P.S.: I may add photos of my forges if wanted, if not you can see the common german forge construction at the website of the german forge supplier „Angele Schmiedetechnik“, who sell forges in many different styles.

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

One big difference I noticed was between US and UK forges, with the UK forges being side blast while ours are mostly bottom blast. I am starting to lean towards going with a side blast if I keep using coal to mitigate the clinker issues that bottom blast have.  Do they use any side blast in Germany? 

Are there any German smithing sites that you would recommend that have good pictures of works done over there? I am always interested in seeing how common items are done in various countries. Same with leather working when I saw items that were done in Australia, and Europe compared to what I was used to seeing here in the States.

[Frosty]

1 hour ago, DerFeldschmied said:

That being said, I recognized that European (or at least German) coal  forges are pretty different to those you find normally in the US

Do you have a name or nick name we may use, your login is too long and cumbersome to use conversationally.

Your comparison is primarily German vs. USA not European as I thought from your thread title. Not a real issue but it's nice to know what we're getting into in advance. 

So far almost all I know (think I know) about German forges is from your post. My preferences aren't an issue so I'll TRY not to get into ramble mode.  Shouldn't WE be asking YOU why cast iron forges aren't found in Germany? Aren't there any blacksmithing organizations guilds maybe, you could ask? We have a recent member with extensive experience in Germany perhaps he can answer.

I've used both basic types, bottom and side blast forges and like both though a deep fire pot is my least favorite general type. Not that they don't do the job well, I'm just not that fond of them. Too limiting for my taste. 

My field expedient forges have almost always been charcoal, side blast. on several occasions the blast was provided by a prevailing breeze and scrounged sheet metal "funnel".

Not dissing anyone but I have noticed many if not most European countries can be very tradition bound, the "If it was good enough for our Fathers it's good enough for me" culture. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[ThomasPowers]

A lot of the small "rivet" forges were sold for rather isolated farmsteads over here where local repairs would be made rather than "going into town" to a full smithy.  I visited the farm near the Trinity site and the write up on it said they would make two trips to town a year---right before winter and right after winter.  Took a full day or two to take a horse drawn wagon to town to pick up supplies---and this is in the 1930's!  (My mother grew up using kerosene lamps as their farm had no electricity when she was young.)

A bit different from "thickly settled" places where a town was a lot closer than 100km!

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

3 hours ago, DerFeldschmied said:

I may add photos of my forges if wanted,

We love photos, anything you would let a child see. After all this is a G rated family friendly forum and language, photos and subject matter is strictly monitored. I also love the discussion on different cultures approach to blacksmithing and equipment used.

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

3 hours ago, DerFeldschmied said:

thanks again to you for your help!

Your more than welcome! Glad I can lend a hand, Hopefully we get that sorted out soon, 

as far as the old cast iron rivet forges go, if you ever come for a visit bring a really big suitcase an I’ll send one home with you! Lol

on the topic of why there are no hand crank blowers in Europe I think it boils down to industrial revolutions around the world, 

here in US we started really producing stuff In Overdrive after the American civil war

so when we started major manufacture of hand crank forge blowers in the late 1800s they we’re almost outdated technology in other places because steam powered machinery started replacing blacksmiths in manufacturing every day goods, and it wasn’t very long before more mechanical machines an electricity came on the seen, 

like Thomas said some rural undeveloped  places like my area didn’t get electric power till around or after ww2 so people still had a use for all the stamped steel an cast forges for awhile, an the local town may or may not have had a full smithy to take your stuff to,

we’re as in Europe some blacksmith shops had been in rural community’s for a 1000 years in some places, so locals probably didn’t really have a need for all the  portable forges because a blacksmith would have still been a local commodity, 

Here in the US, I think with the advance of technology both mechanical an electrical blacksmiths started thinning out in the 1940s and we’re almost all gone by the 1970s until there was a resurgence in people interested and it’s slowly came back to popularity, 

I think Buffalo and champion both survived through the 1960s but started loosing steam shortly after an both sold out to other companies, I don’t remember what happened to Otto,

I’d bet there was never enough of a market interest in Europe for their products so that’s why the never got mass imported over there, 

the only European hand crank blowers I can think of were made by aldys an onions in England, 

Example of what major interest can do,

When I started hunting down rusty blacksmith junk in 2013 there was very few modern blacksmith tools available, just a handful of websites selling blacksmith stuff with very limited stock,

now!!! There’s lord knows how many suppliers selling anything you could possibly dream of for blacksmithing and more stuff on the market every day, 

I think if Europe sees a resurgence in interest by millions of people like we have had here, then you to will see more an more stuff come available both new and used, 

As far as the old stuff goes, The guy that runs blacksmith paradise imports tons of anvils and swage blocks from Europe to the US,

if there’s ever enough market for these blowers in Europe then I’m sure someone here will start importing them over there! Lol

3 hours ago, DerFeldschmied said:

: I may add photos of my forges if wanted

Please do! I know I’ve seen some of your pictures but go ahead an share your photos with everyone!

[TWISTEDWILLOW]

4 hours ago, Frosty said:

Not dissing anyone but I have noticed many if not most European countries can be very tradition bound, the "If it was good enough for our Fathers it's good enough for me" culture. 

I don’t believe he’s very traditional in his setup, he’s actually just a young man interested in how other people designed built and used blacksmithing tools,

5 hours ago, DerFeldschmied said:

for myself really like and prefer the American style of forges, especially the cast iron forge pans.

Greetings

Hopefully he will get some time this week to post some pictures of his current setup!

[DerFeldschmied]

Hey,

thank you for all those responses, I am glad that it seems a bit interesting to the community. 
The explanation for the lack of cast and manually operated forges that there was already a „blacksmithing infrastructure“ in Europe and that steam power made manual machines needless are really good points I didn’t really thought about before. Another idea that came to my mind was that many old tools were scrapped during both World Wars when they needed a big supply of steel and iron in a short amount of time. At least that’s what I once heard about anvils. Also the destruction of factories could also have caused a loss of old tools while in the US I believe it was much easier to get old tools from metal enterprises running out, I read here in the forum once that Ohio seems to be (or was) an El Dorado for Blacksmithing Supply.

19 hours ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Do they use any side blast in Germany? 

I know of a few knife makers and reenactors of course which use some JABOD or Japanese style forges. But I never heard of any regularly produced side blast forge here in Germany.

19 hours ago, BIGGUNDOCTOR said:

Are there any German smithing sites that you would recommend that have good pictures of works done over there?

Yes there is! I really can recommend the German Blacksmithing Forum http://v2.schmiededaseisen.de . I used to be pretty active there (same username as here) but since it became very quiet there (some problems with the admin and stuff like that I don’t know the details), I almost completely switched to this community which is far more busy! However, there's still much to see about craft, tools, etc. Of course it is in German (although there’s a small English corner) but with common translators this may be no big issue I believe.

18 hours ago, Frosty said:

Do you have a name or nick name we may use, your login is too long and cumbersome to use conversationally.

Sorry for not having introduced myself yet, although I am active here for half a year now, I seem to have forgotten this. My name is Paul, I am 19 years old and started Blacksmithing back in 2018, sometimes doing more, sometimes less. So I would consider myself still being a beginner and a passionate tool collector (although I don’t know any smith who isn’t).

18 hours ago, Frosty said:

Your comparison is primarily German vs. USA not European as I thought from your thread title.

You’re right, sorry for that! But I see you already changed it, thanks!

18 hours ago, Frosty said:

Aren't there any blacksmithing organizations guilds maybe, you could ask?

Despite of the German Blacksmithing Forum I believe there are. But due to German Work and Apprenticeship/Profession laws, those guilds are more like Unions and Associations which are more or less integrated into metal industry unions so it’s nothing a hobbyist can join so easily or interact with. But I am not that sure about this, I really didn’t thought about this before, so I may be wrong.

18 hours ago, Frosty said:

Not dissing anyone but I have noticed many if not most European countries can be very tradition bound, the "If it was good enough for our Fathers it's good enough for me" culture. 

Well I have to admit this may be true (at least in Germany). But this is also caused by the fact that there are basically two professions: Firstly there is the normal „Schmied“ so the blacksmith who does all kind of artistic and forged stuff (also tools and knives but not that often). On the other hand, there’s the „Schlosser“ which means locksmith who does all those metalwork for example fenced, doors, locks, steel construction in general. The Schlosser may also sometimes forge decorative elements but mostly he fabricates and machines things. So it may seem that German blacksmiths tend to dislike fabrication and such stuff but I think it’s really based on the fact that it’s not their profession. But much of this traditionalism is also caused by the strict profession and and apprenticeship laws which may cause a longer and stronger tradition. Hobbyists, however seem to be much more flexible in their work.

15 hours ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

the only European hand crank blowers I can think of were made by aldys an onions in England, 

 

There are, in fact many hand cranked blowers in France, I know of two companies called „Air et Feu“ and „Le Mistral“ but sadly I couldn’t find out much about the companies expect of the name. But those French blowers are also different to the US ones because they are much smaller. I think they are comparable to those Champion and Buffalo put on their Rivet forges.

15 hours ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

I think if Europe sees a resurgence in interest by millions of people like we have had here, then you to will see more an more stuff come available both new and used, 

Interestingly, blacksmithing stuff is in comparison to the US very cheap and common. Especially anvils show up very frequently here to moderate prizes (I bought mine, a 220lb South German Pattern in acceptable to good condition for around 250€ So 1-2€ per pound). I think those prizes and frequent offers are an effect of the low demand. However, I noticed that the prizes grew and the quality of offers shrunk within the past years so I'm glad that I have all of the stuff I need.

Well, to be honest, I would consider myself traditional concerning my setup. If I would do a living out of blacksmithing, I would think differently but as a hobbyist, I enjoy working with old and special tools and to kind of experience how the craft was back in the days. So all those cast iron or manually operated tools are much more interesting to me than fabricated and electric ones. Also it makes me kind of sad to see all those old yet working machines on the market which are only one step from melting pot so I want to give them a new purpose. Besides, for me personally, old tools are much handier, too. For instance I use a Coal forge and want to use a hand crank blower because I don’t have electricity in my shop and don’t want to roll out a cable every time. Also, electric blowers (or at least mine) are too loud for my neighbors and last but not least, I am a little afraid of gas forges (I know that sounds funny but I stay with good old coal! xD). But besides that, you’re right, I am really interested in old tooling and how those were used and produced in other countries!

So, that was a very long answer but I hope I was able to answer some questions. If there are any other questions, feel free to ask!

Greetings

P.S.: I don’t get rid of the quotation below nor can I move it so I let it stay there. It is meant to stand before the last paragraph.

13 hours ago, TWISTEDWILLOW said:

I don’t believe he’s very traditional in his setup, he’s actually just a young man interested in how other people designed built and used blacksmithing tools

[DerFeldschmied]

Ah, I forgot about putting the pictures of my forges into the reply. 

Above you can see my main forge which is built like most forges in Germany: Fabricated angle iron table, big cast iron firepot, electric forge blower. On the last three pictures you can see the tuyere construction with a up-down-clinker breaker and a lever-operated slidind ash dump. 
 

 

The three pictures above show the equivalent to a rivet forge called „Feldesse“ which means roughly „field forge“ so a forge which was used in army camps or so. You can see that it has the same, common angle iron construction (this time partly riveted) and also a cast iron firepot. It also has a up-down clinker breaker and a lever operated ash dump and you can see the foot pedal which operates the flywheel which then turns the blower via a flat belt (which is not mounted at the picture). Those forges aren’t that bad at all because you don’t need electricity and have both hands free for holding the workpiece and caring for the fire. Nevertheless, those forges are limiting due to the size of the blower and firepot.

I hope those images help understanding my first post.

P.S: I apologize for my messy workshop it is still in winter mode and I hope to get it tidy this week!

 

Greetings

[Frosty]

Nice set up Paul, it's good to see different types of coal forge. I sure wouldn't call your space messy, it's almost too neat and clean. Then again I'm a packrat, my shop was getting crowded before the roof was on.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Jobtiel1]

The difference between the portable forges in US and Europe has come up a few times here. the things you call feldschmiede, and I call veldsmidse, the portable foot powered fortges, I think are practically the same as rivet forges, almost all of them have cast iron firepots. Side blast forges are not really sold here, however, I jave seen some old forges with bellows and stone construction that had side blast construction. this implies they used side blast in the olden days. it is really interesting to see that the difference in history can impact tool use to this extent.

~Jobtiel