pnut Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 13 hours ago, Will Robisch said: I got my propane forge and put the steel in and heated up as hot as I could, I put flux on, I put it back in I think this may also be a reason your weld misbehaved. I learned the hard way that if you're using flux it's better to put it on before the steel is hot enough to form scale or you're just trapping all the scale in the joint. Just hot enough to melt the flux. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Melted borax does have some ability to dissolve scale and carry it out of the weld, but the less it needs to, the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 1 hour ago, pnut said: if you're using flux it's better to put it on before the steel is hot enough to form scale or you're just trapping all the scale in the joint. Just hot enough to melt the flux. The problem with this is that scale starts to form at about 1550°F, whereas borax melts at 1770°F. However, adding flux too early is better than adding it too late, as it will have less scale to dissolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Robisch Posted April 19, 2021 Author Share Posted April 19, 2021 Latticiano, I did make doors for the forge after bending it, it definitely helped keep some heat in, but I guess it is just not enough heat, the forge I built with my dad, and sometime we are planning on building a bigger one for more heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Will, just remember that a bigger forge will require a bigger burner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 How hot it gets is based on burner size and how much insulation it has; not the size of the forge chamber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnut Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Seems like the anhydrous borax I made starts to get sticky at lower than scale forming temperatures. Not completely liquid but sticky enough to stay in place. I'll have to check to see if it has a lower melting point. Seems likely. My feeling is also better early with the flux than late. Pnut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 As I recall JPH's "steel glue" flux has several components to it that melt at lower temps as well as borax to cover higher temps. In general I just use a mix of 20 Mule team Borax---3 partsand Roach Prufe (boric acid)---1 part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 2 hours ago, ThomasPowers said: How hot it gets is based on burner size and how much insulation it has; not the size of the forge chamber. Ummm, there is a bit of a corollary, depending on how you look at it. A larger forge chamber typically has more thermal mass to heat up to the required re-radiative incandescence with are looking for. There is also a pretty direct relationship between the heat loss from your chamber and the surface area of the external skin (though admittedly in a well insulated chamber it most likely pales next to the losses through the heated exhaust gasses and the radiation through the open door). For my axes and hawks I usually use plain old 20 mule team Borax. It sticks to the steel for me just fine at a low red heat, then melts as the stock heats up in the forge forming the barrier to oxidation I am looking for. Other additions, or anhydrous, are also great though. I have used both a version of Alaskan flux and the commercial Black Magic flux and seen improvements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 I would say that a larger chamber takes longer to come up to heat; but that the running temp is based on Heat in vs Heat out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Robisch Posted April 19, 2021 Author Share Posted April 19, 2021 What I meant by a bigger forge was bigger but also another burner or two to help get it hotter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Have you made any tomahawks from old farrier's rasps? An easier project to practice welding on and some brands use quite nice steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Robisch Posted April 19, 2021 Author Share Posted April 19, 2021 No I have not made a tomahawk I guess I will try that project and see if I can get that to work in the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted April 19, 2021 Share Posted April 19, 2021 Make friends with a farrier and they may give you a bunch of rasps to try. Record the maker and then try the heat/quench/break test on the end to see if it's case hardened or not. Wear PPE when breaking! The ones that break easily are the good ones. (Check them on your list of makers.) Cut to length and wrap around a hawk drift, clean flux and weld. Grind, heat treat, (Normalize a couple of times, heat and quench in warm vegetable oil, temper.) I often sell these as kindling hatchets for woodstoves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyBones Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Will, your only 14? Cool. Like others have said this is not a beginners project. 5160 is notoriously hard to weld. If this is your first ax i would suggest getting something much easier to weld to get the hang of it. Something you may want to try. Cut some small pieces of your spring, say maybe 1/2" long. Put 2 of them together and try and weld them. Make a couple faggots like that and while doing it pay attention to the color and look of the metal. Once you can do that an ax should be easy peasy. Anyway keep at it. When you get it and you have made 100 axes you will wonder why it was such a fuss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Robisch Posted April 20, 2021 Author Share Posted April 20, 2021 I was thinking of trying that exact thing BillyBones. I will try again this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 It's sometimes said that an expert is someone who's tried and failed more times than a beginner has even tried. Keep practicing, paying attention, and learning, and you will get there eventually. If you have the opportunity to take classes with, spend some time forging with, or even just watching someone with real mastery, TAKE IT! You will learn more from an hour's instruction with a good teacher than you will from a dozen hours or more working on your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Will, if you put your general location in your profile, nothing specific, you might be surprised how many members are close enough to visit and offer advice and if your parents agree to let you use their shop on occasion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted April 20, 2021 Share Posted April 20, 2021 Strongly agree. I've picked up some great info from visiting other IFI smiths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Robisch Posted May 12, 2021 Author Share Posted May 12, 2021 Sorry for the long wait, I got a little bit side tracked, however I got around to trying to forge weld and I think it was a success I did little grinding after so that's probably why it still looks like there is a crack, and I have not drifted the eye yet. When I get a little closer to being done, I will update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Latticino Posted May 13, 2021 Share Posted May 13, 2021 Make sure you hold the body tightly together in a vise while you are drifting. The front edge of the eye peels easily. If at all possible, use your axe drift as a mandrel as much as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Robisch Posted May 15, 2021 Author Share Posted May 15, 2021 Ok, I will try that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squid008 Posted August 5, 2023 Share Posted August 5, 2023 Hey Will, I'm doing the same thing with leaf spring. Did you end up doing a shim or did you forge weld leaf spring to leaf spring directly? Thanks! Jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted August 5, 2023 Share Posted August 5, 2023 Welcome from the Ozark mountains. It looks like Will hasn't logged on in a couple of years. You might try sending him a PM, if he has notifications turned on he will get it. I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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