BingVision Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Hello everyone, So I caught the itch for beating on hot metal as a kid and finally have started gathering supplies to begin my trip down the rabbit hole. I managed to horse trade my machining/lathe skills for an old home built gas forge which needs some serious love. Outer dimensions are 16" diameter x 18" long with a 4"×4" fold down door in the rear and a roughly 7" x 8" front door with a counter weighted, pulley operated door. The burner pipe is 2" i am guessing... (2.25" OD x 1.875" ID) The refractory is shot and will be replaced soon with new floor bricks and kaowool around the sides, and coated with refractory cement. The burner unit looks sketchy as all get out and I am not inclined to blow myself up anytime soon. Maybe it is just fine, but i don't like taking chances with safety. It appears as if a "jet" of some kind was just stuck in that angled pipe in the picture maybe? I am no stranger to redneck engineering, but not with flammable gasses... I am planning on doubling the thickness of the refractory on the walls up to 4" roughly. I am curious how to keep this as a forced air setup and a single burner if possible. But I am lacking knowledge on making this burner safe to operate and relatively fuel efficient. Adding an emergency shutoff solenoid seems wise, as well as a temp probe, and pressure gauge. Take a look at the pics and tell me what you think! Any and all input/advice is greatly appreciated in advance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 I see nothing obviously wrong with the the present burner, or with your plans. Why do you think it may not be safe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Welcome aboard Bing, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might be surprised how many members live within visiting distance. Do you have a name, nick name, handle, etc. we may address you by your login is really cumbersome. We might have to make something up. I'm betting this is the first home made propane burning appliance he's messed with Mike. A little apprehension is a good thing, asking for experience help even better. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Agreed; a little apprehension is a good thing. I asked a question to get an answer. Is there something in particular he's worried about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Uh, right you are, I was assuming, I should've kept it zipped. I'll wait and see where his questions and or concerns lead. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingVision Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 Mikey, honestly, ignorance and a small dose of the "ooh shiny" disease. I have been doing research for a few weeks and may have developed some "forge envy" seeing some of the slick setups the more seasoned smiths have built. Also, i tend to err on the side of caution, and considering the history of the previous owner...well, it wouldnt be hard to figure out where my hesitation come from... To coin a slicker moniker, BiNg! will suffice. In regards to my location, i prefer to keep that to myself. No disrespect, and no disrespect to the NUMEROUS smiths in my area, even the previous owner of my forge. He is a talented smith and has been doing this along time. I have heard some wild stories about oversights leading to mishaps, so i am hesitating due to my own ignorance, as well as my own mishaps which lead to injuries, not his knowledge or ability. Call it being gunshy, a pansy, whatever you may, but almost losing your eyesight from being stupid/complacent really "opens your eyes" pun definitely intended... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingVision Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 I really appreciate the willingness to help, and the more I learn about how the fuel/air apparatus works, the more confident I will become. I look forward to the journey. So, is there something in particular I am worried about? Yes'sir, my lack of knowledge about the tools I have aquired, how they work, and how to safely use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 BiNg! is even harder, Boink it will be then. Word of warning, being to scared something will happen usually leads to bad things happening (if you are scared to fall, you will fall). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingVision Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 Bing, Boink, Bonk, call me whatever you like, Tony would work too. Wise words Deimos, and I completely agree. Being smart enough to know the risks of an undertaking, and seeking knowledge in order to mitigate those risks, is all I am shooting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Then you will do just fine, as long as you know things can go wrong and not freeze up or panic when they do go wrong. Prepare for things to go wrong (get yourself a fire extinguisher and a bucket of water, eye and ear protection, clothing that does not go WOOSH when it gets hit by a spark, gloves, clogs and if you work alone keep your phone close by and tell people what you are doing) but don't expect them to go wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingVision Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 Thanks, solid advice. I have worked in a number of very dangerous industries, and the fundamentals of safety always apply regardless if is being a machinist, a millwright, mechanic, framer/roofer, welder/swamper, all of which I have done. It seems that it is those fundamentals that are always somehow overlooked when avoidable accidents occur. (Like exploding molten lead into both eyes! Yeah, not my brightest moment) So, a friendly reminder is always welcome! Thanks again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deimos Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Same here brother, welder, mechanical/hydraulic mechanic, electrician, engineer and cycle mender. Exploding lead into the eyes sounds pretty nasty, but since you survived it makes a good story for sure. To get back to your concern about flammable gasses, since you where a welder you know how to handle a pressurized bottle. You also know that a leaking bottle is bad, so use soap to check if the connection is ok. When lighting the forge I go with placing a burning piece of paper inside of the forge, opening the air intake a little before opening the gas valve (this way the flame will start blue instead of yellow, yellow flames are not concentrated so they will want to eat your eyebrows) This way you can be away from the opening and nothing really bad can happen, even if you get a burst of flame from the forge opening you will be safely to the side, adding more air so that the flame gets blue and loud. Since they burner opening can't really be blocked by anything (like with a cutting torch) (unless you actively try to do so, and in that case you are just tempting Darwin) there is no danger of the flame jumping back into the pipe/hose/bottle. Having a manual ball valve to close of the gas is a useful thing because it is much faster then closing the bottle (I don't like my last safety measure to be electronic because there are more parts that can go wrong then) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingVision Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 (edited) Awesome, i was a little concerned about flashback, like with cutting torches, and was curious why none of the builds i have seen include flashback arresters. I am wondering if they are built into the high pressure regulators or just not necessary on something like this. Also, i was wondering about the flare design. Most forced air builds I have seen use some form of ribbon/diffuser at the business end of the burner. The current setup has no diffuser/ribbon, it is just an open tube. I have some scavenged parts that are practically built for this application (See Photo), i am just not sure which one to use, or if the ribbon/diffuser piece makes no difference in the performance of the burner and would be wasted effort. Thoughts? The smaller holes are .120" and the larger holes are .205". Both are stainless steel (316L I think)and i would be turning the OD down to proper size for the pipe if one of these get used. Thanks again for all the input! Edited March 26, 2021 by Mod30 Resize photo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Flash back: you can't get flashback in propane---it has to have Oxygen to burn; pure propane puts OUT a fire. Without a pressurized O2 source there is no way for O2 to work itself up a flowing propane hose. Now Acetylene WILL "exothermically disassociate" even without O2 present so it MUST have flashback arrestors to keep the tank from blowing up! Blown propane burners can be extremely simple; they don't have the very picky dimensions to get them to work just right as you can adjust the blower to get the air/fuel mix to just right. Having a right angle bend in the tube is used to help mix air and fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 9 hours ago, BingVision said: In regards to my location, i prefer to keep that to myself. No disrespect None take, but the answers to a lot of questions are location-specific, and this will help us give you good information easier. A general location is fine; lots of folks here give just their state, region, even country (if sufficiently small). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingVision Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 Western US of A. Thomas, thanks! That makes alot of sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irondragon Forge ClayWorks Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 We won't remember your location longer than 30 seconds after leaving this post, hence the suggestion to put it in your profile. If you narrow it down a little more, you may be surprised how many members are near enough to visit and lend a hand on so many things. My experience with propane forges is limited but with everyone's help here my wife & I built a very good one with a naturally aspirated burner. Now if you gravitate to coal forges, I've used one for over 30 years and there isn't much that stumps me with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 The way to turn on your afterburners going through the learning curve is to spend a little time with someone who knows what they are doing. We generally suggest folks in the USA check out their local ABANA Affiliate, maybe attend some meetings when they have them again. If you're near me; let me know and I'll introduce you to the NMABA, New Mexico Artist Blacksmith Association. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Just be careful not to turn them on BEFORE going into the curve! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 Tony, While you're going slow and careful (good choice), you may want to spend some of that learning curve completing the change from just a fan-blown forge to a fan-blown ribbon burner of the type so many guys here choose. I think that further change well serve you brilliantly. Tomas and others on this group will be able to guide your closely to a safe conclusion of such a project. Your fuel bill will thank you for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BingVision Posted March 26, 2021 Author Share Posted March 26, 2021 Agreed, tactile experience paired with experienced supervision is my favorite way to learn. Sometimes I admit, I get into moods where I like to figure things out for myself. I live in WY, so there is no shortage of smiths who like sharing their knowledge...for better or worse. I am just antisocial and enjoy my privacy, hence the hesitation to disclose my location. Silly, maybe...but I am who I am. And in regards to the coal forge, yep, built one of those, it worked but finding coal out here is quite a logistic endeavor that isn't worth it to me. Mikey, I am not sure if you saw the scavenged pieces I was planning on using, but am I correct in thinking having some sort of ribbon/diffuser on the end of my flare is better than an open tube? I know the true ribbon burners are traditionally rectangular, but my pipe is 2" diameter going tangentially into the forge. Would having one of those pieces on my flare accomplish a similar benefit as having the true ribbon burner? Or am I using the terminology incorrectly maybe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey98118 Posted March 26, 2021 Share Posted March 26, 2021 I did see them, and have read about their use to improve fan-blown burner performance. HOWEVER, fully committed blown ribbon burners are far advanced beyond them; taking the time to rebuild your forge carefully will put you miles ahead of using drilled metal plates; your choice. As to ribbon burners being rectangular; that is just a convenience; these burners have been built round for decades, before this. Dudley F. Giberson Jr. has been building and selling the type of burner you want since the sixties. It might seem, at first glance, that rectangular burner heads are only about some lack of skill in the builders; this is far from the truth. A moments thought makes it obvious that pipe fittings are easier to deal with than plenum chambers built from plate. The shape is about getting the best fit with smaller forges. You have a large forge, and have no need of a rectangular burner head; it would still be a better fit, but is kind of like gilding the Lilly in your case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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