Having trouble with a Champion blower fan shaft removal (not model 400)

[MarriedWithAnvils]

Hello all. I’m taking apart this old blower and it’s absolute sludge inside. I have it mostly apart, but I can’t find a way to get the fan shaft out. I removed the screw by the fan blades to loosen it from the other side, but the shaft goes all the way through and I can’t find a way to get it out. Thanks!

[ThomasPowers]

Why do you have to remove it?  Best practice is to let sleeping blowers lie. They have generally "worn into themselves" and trying to get everything aligned just like it was before you took it apart is quite difficult.

[MarriedWithAnvils]

It’s not functioning properly and is caked with oil and dirt so badly that...never mind. I come here for help and I get “why are you doing this?”  Thanks anyway. I’ll take it to my local smith club and get help there.

[Chris C]

Wow, are we a bit edgy today?  You might want to listen to Thomas.  He's most likely forgotten more about blacksmithing tools and equipment than you'll ever know.  His advice comes with a WHOLE of of experience and is freely given when asked for.

[ThomasPowers]

Remember that while you may be making the questions; the answers are displayed for the WORLD and so cautions that may or may not apply to your particular situation may be given.

However I would try to clean that mess up without disassembly:  Will it fit in a 5 gallon bucket or dish tub?  if so a long soak in a good grease cutter may help.  Got a friend with a parts cleaner; worth a case of brown pop to put a blower in it overnight.!

For the Blower I just took from jammed solid to  turning freely; I flooded the gearcase with ATF and let it sit a month.  Luckily it's a tiger and so at least the lower part of the gearcase will hold oil!  (I also did it in my shop with the dirt floor so cleanup of leaking oil is easily done with a shovel and a bucket of replacement sand/gravel/clay from the arroyo.) When it started leaking oil around the shaft I did a happy dance!  It had been sitting laying down for at least for 25 years; all the old oil was pretty much a solid, gumming things up.  Actively getting it turning nicely took a lot less time than making a replacement grip for the handle or freeing up the bolt holding the counter balance on the handle.

I got my first blower back in the 1980's.  This weekend I will be working an an old motorized Champion 50 blower to see what shape the original motor is in.  Tonight it gets oiled.  Tomorrow afternoon it will be hooked to power. The shaft spins already; so if it will run, I can flush it with oil.

MWA; I apologize from trying to prevent you from possibly making a major mistake. Please feel free to ignore my posts in the future. (I may still post answers/suggestions; for as mentioned, they are for the WORLD.)

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

4 hours ago, MarriedWithAnvils said:

I come here for help

The help we are giving you is accurate. The first piece of advice I always tell someone is "do no harm".

I have "overhauled" 4 Champion blowers and can tell you the farther you take it apart, the more problems you will create. Just looking at the picture, I would say you have a number 40 or 140 blower. There are no replacement parts available for those old blowers, so if you mess one up you will have to make it or find another blower for use as donor parts. I have no problem cleaning decades old caked gunk out of blowers using kerosene and a parts cleaning brush. One time I took the blower to a car wash and used the high pressure hose with soap (like washing a car) and it came out spotless. All that was then needed was to put some gear oil in it and use it.

I'm betting the folks at your local smith club who have experience with those old blowers will tell you the same thing.

Peace out Branden

[Frosty]

I'm hoping the folks at the local smithing club treat him better than he's asking for. It's sort of like the folks who insist they need to repair an anvil without knowing anything except the edges aren't sharp. Gets angry and takes off when told there's nothing wrong with it. It's sad I'm thinking he's making ANOTHER one of those parts blowers.

<sigh>

Frosty The Lucky.

[pnut]

Try soaking it in acetone and automatic transmission fluid in a fifty fifty mixture. 

Pnut

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

That will definitely remove any gunk and rust.

[MarriedWithAnvils]

Ok everyone, perhaps my response was a bit terse, but I already had it apart from the pictures, so the warning - while maybe beneficial to the world - I perceived as being a bit sarcastic. My bad. Honestly, sorry. I hate the Internet. It’s a necessary evil and it bothers me. I’m skeptical of people I don’t know, and when I ask for help I don’t particularly like perceived unhelpful replies.

I didn’t take the gearbox apart. I actually listened to and heeded Thomas’ advice. The club guys said I could take it apart and reassemble, as there’s a ton of talent there, too. Are they wrong? Right? I don’t know.

Did you see in the picture that a piece of the blower is cracked off (see picture attached), and that the gasket is totally gone? I didn’t do that. I need to weld the piece back on and re-gasket the case. Or not?  Perhaps this one’s already toast and ready for the parts bin. It was in poor condition when I got it. No oil. Gears grinding. Very stiff and sluggish mechanism. Handle was taped due to a split down the middle and a bent carriage bolt was holding it on. Maybe this is how they all are? I have never once heard from anyone not to take it apart to clean/restore it. I’m trying to salvage what I can and I thought I could take the fan out to better clean the gearbox half of the case. If I can’t, ok, I’ll clean around it another way.

I did listen. I didn’t stomp away mad. I apologize for my initial response to you, Thomas.

[Welshj]

I've welded some cast iron- but never that thin. I don't know how that would work out? I've never tig welded- anybody?

I would think WORST case scenario- jb weld steel type epoxy maybe? I know.... ugh.

I have a champion blower in my shed, it has no gasket between the halves. It doesn't look like its ever been apart, and is missing the original hand crank. With the low amount of airflow these push- i probably wouldn't worry about it.

[Chris C]

Takes a good man to stand up like that.

JB Weld has saved my bacon more than once.  I've been known to replace holes in things like that housing with it.  Get either the inside or outside of that gap bridged by cutting up a pop/beer can and using it as a backing.  Then lather the JB Weld in and wait for it to set up.  Then get out your grinder and grind out what doesn't look like blower housing.  You'll have to get the housing sparkling clean before you start.  Mix up a quart of ATF and a quart of Coleman camp stove fuel 50/50 and then add a pint of SeaFoam.  Put that housing in a bucket with that mixture and leave it for a week or so.  It'll come clean.  Then you can make it new.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I also have never seen a gasket between the cases. I know of a couple guys that used calking compound but it doesn't really need it unless the cases are warped. I did notice the broken half of the mounting bracket, I would braze it back together but don't know if you have the A/O torch set up to do it. Maybe one of the club members can lend a hand there. As far as a new handle they are easy to make if you have a wood lathe. A good cleaning and new oil should help with the grinding and sluggish operation, but be advised that they all make some noise unless they were never used. The gears take a set through use, but the end play can be adjusted on the gear/fan combination shaft, which sometimes will tone that down. From the picture I can't tell if the gears are in good shape.

[Frosty]

Thank you for the apology, accepted with gratitude.

I've helped a couple local guys with locked up blowers by taking it to the car wash and blasting the worst out with the high pressure washer. Kids are drawn to dropping rocks into them like they're magnetic and all sorts of critters love to build nests in them. Most of the locked up blowers I've seen only needed a thorough cleaning. I always try the least invasive measure I can when dealing with malfunctioning machinery. Especially if you can't buy parts.

Don't sweat it, everybody has crabby days, we're over it. You?

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[MarriedWithAnvils]

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

Don't sweat it, everybody has crabby days, we're over it. You?

 

Yes sir, I’m over it as well and thanks for the helpful advice. That goes for all of you. I will consider all of it and will post up when I’m finished. The week of soaking is probably the direction I’ll go, then I’ll try to determine the best way to weld that piece back on. I don’t have a torch, but definitely have access to one. I’ve used JB Weld a lot, and hadn’t considered that until now.

Seriously, thanks for the forgiveness. I’ll do better the next time I’m feeling like a 2-year-old.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

11 hours ago, MarriedWithAnvils said:

I’ll do better the next time

So will we.

I can see why you perceived, we were being short with you, because in my case I was. After answering the same question multiple times, we often revert to being Curmudgeon's. So for all of us I apologize. Of course a couple glasses of wine doesn't help either. If all the teeth on the gears are good, you should have a serviceable blower after the repairs. My first Lancaster blower had me concerned with the rattling and a old timer told me not to worry about that but keep it lubricated and use it. That was 30+ years ago and it is still going strong (used the forge) it's mounted to the other day and I really didn't hear the noise.

[ThomasPowers]

Now I have seen folks add gasketting between the halves, but that was done to space it out a bit more as the fan was rubbing in use.  They did not come with gasketting originally AFAICT.  If the fan is just sheet metal it's pretty easy to bend the vane rubbing back a bit.  If it has a cast center then bedning becomes much more chancy!  Filing might be a better way to go.

As far as dissembly; I think of it like a car: when given a problem---try the cheap fixes first before moving to the expensive one.

[MarriedWithAnvils]

The 50/50 acetone, ATF, and Seafoam mixture really did a number on the sludge. It’s gone. Put it back together today and a couple of things of note:

1.) JB Weld didn’t hold the broken piece together, so I had to weld it. I welded it from the outside to keep bead away from the spinning blades inside. Worked great. Didn’t melt or warp it, and it’s holding solid. My welding skills are below noob level. Forgive the sloppy work. Learning as I go.

2.) I had to re-handle it, as you can see. I don’t have a lathe, so I had to improvise. I bought a wooden-handled paint roller, took the roller out of the handle, cut it to size, drilled the 5/16” hole all the way through, and bought a new 5/16”-18 6-inch long carriage bolt and washers for spacing. Works great and is larger than the original...and less cracked.

3.) I need to let the gearbox dry out before putting the top cover back on and adding oil/grease. Will likely let it dry for a couple of days to be sure.

4.) I added white lithium grease to the bolts to help prevent rusting and seizing. I hope that was ok? I researched it and it seems good for this application.

Thanks for all your help and guidance. I doubt this blower will ever not leak oil because it’s not perfectly sealed around the fan shaft that runs through the gearbox. Maybe I’m wrong about that, but I didn’t take it apart per your recommendations.

[Chris C]

Well good on you!  Looks as if it worked out for ya.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

For lubrication, do not use grease it's OK on the threads (I use anti seize compound). I like either 80 wt gear oil or even better chainsaw bar oil with a little STP mixed in. The lubrication system of these old blowers is a splash system. Add just enough oil for the teeth of the bottom gear to run in it and it will distribute oil to the rest of the gears and bearings/bushings. Any more oil than that will leak out like a sieve.

[MarriedWithAnvils]

4 minutes ago, Irondragon ForgeClay Works said:

For lubrication, do not use grease it's OK on the threads (I use anti seize compound). I like either 80 wt gear oil or even better chainsaw bar oil with a little STP mixed in. The lubrication system of these old blowers is a splash system. Add just enough oil for the teeth of the bottom gear to run in it and it will distribute oil to the rest of the gears and bearings/bushings. Any more oil than that will leak out like a sieve.

Awesome will do. I have some Lucas gear oil and will not use too much. Thanks a bunch!

[Welshj]

What did you wind up using to weld it? (Just curious)

Looks pretty decently done. Getting there man!

[MarriedWithAnvils]

3 minutes ago, Welshj said:

What did you wind up using to weld it? (Just curious)

Looks pretty decently done. Getting there man!

Thank you. I used my Forney Easy Weld 261, 140 FC-i MIG using 120V power. Not a beefy welder but my first one and it worked well. Got penetration into the crack without deformation or melting.

[MarriedWithAnvils]

It’s done. Minor restoration complete. It leaks a little bit, but that’s typical. But it works much better than before. Thanks again, all.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Pretty handle; I'll have to remember that trick.  The one I just did was made by splitting a short section of old shovel handle, then putting it in a vise and drilling an axial hole---which of course wandered, so I used the drawknife to dress it so the hole was axial.  Took it over to the blower  and glued the sides of the split and put a couple of hose clamps on it till it dried.  A lot more work but I want to preserve the original riveting of the grip shaft.  The old shovel handle also looks "old".

Now on the blower I use; I just have a section of copper pipe mounted with a bolt as the axle---stays nice and shiny. If it dulls I know I need more forge time!