Paul: You're not thinking of the forge and burners as 2 parts of one machine. Playing with one without having the other to test against is not a productive use of time nor money.

Multi outlet burners will weld if tuned properly and in a small enough volume. Because they spread the flame over a larger volume in the forge I find one needs a smaller volume to guarantee welding temps. Under a single outlet burner there will be a SPOT that's hotter than the rest of the forge, strong vortex or not.

Frosty The Lucky.

Hmmm...perhaps it's time to consider whole-forge performance versus spot heating? I'm not sure where I would stand in such a debate.

Perhaps it was the term hot "Spot" that seems different? We've been talking about even heat in the forge for . . . since the internet went public, probably longer.  I've said a number of times I like a propane forge with a hot zone / spot. I made NARB more to prove to myself that the high static pressure required by the ribbon burner plans as published in several places is flawed. 

I want a localized heat more often than I want to heat 6" of stock.  It leaves me conflicted when I start planning the next NARB forge. I THINK I can make it heat a reasonably small zone but it's another gamble. 

Could be worth the discussion as the subject. 

I'm game.

Frosty The Lucky.

Im not sure I understand what you mean Frosty. I think we may have lost each other here because I am throwing out way to many ideas at once.... so my bad there!

What I did this afternoon is shrink my forge for a test. I disconnected the rear burner and plugged the hole and then used some soft brick to take up the excess space and it worked beautifully! I havent tried welding yet. I think the bricks will melt. But I feel like Im getting close to figuring out what I need.

Mikey, I hear you there... with the axes, a bigger area at high heat would be preferable, but I started a set of tongs and the single burner worked really really well. There was a noticeable hot spot but it did still heat the whole forge fairly even once it was up to temp and I turned the pressure down. So Im still a little lost there, but I think Im close to having it the way I need it.

Don't sweat it Paul I may have confused myself. I was thinking you were trying several things at the same time which is usually a disaster. 

Frosty The Lucky.

Ah I see! Sorry about that! I am throwing multiple ideas out at once, but trying only one at a time. I think what Im mostly doing is logging my ideas and thinking out loud so that any flaws can be pointed out. And many have been so it worked out well I think!  

Ok Im back... Ive figured out what i need. A 4”x2” arch in the back half of the forge to replace these test bricks and plug this hole:

I have sourced 20 sq/ft of 1” 8# cerachrome blanket for the same price as 6 sq/ft of 2” 8# kaowool. The cerachrome says its good for 2500° continuous heat so that seems to be the way to go if you guys agree...???

Also, have you guys heard of this stuff?

its a 3000° mortar cement. Im a little confused on all that but my understanding is that it wont work... right?

Generally speaking, refractory mortar (also known as refractory cement) is designed to go between bricks to hold them together, not to be a flame face. I've tried to use 3000° refractory cement for emergency repairs in my gasser, and it melted and fell apart. A different product that what you reference, to be sure, but a cautionary tale about intended uses.

Thanks! Thats what I thought, just wanted to check. I will go with good old Kastolite I think. And possibly that cerachrome blanket if you guys think its worth it.

Bouncing ideas off folk is what's known as brainstorming, we do it all the time, I just missed the intersection. 

No refractory cement or mortar! As John says it's designed to stick things together NOT take flame contact. Kastolite 30 holds up beautifully even if you don't have a kiln wash on it. 

Frosty The Lucky.

So Kastolite it is! I just have to find it in more then 1 gallon pails... and this is the data sheet on the available ceramic blankets:

 

It seemes like the cerachrome is the better product for continuous heat, I just dont know the difference between them. I guess as long as it will hold its shape and handle high temp, it will work?

Ok so I just decided to pull the trigger on the minimum of what I need. I just cant get the other guys to commit so I didnt want to buy so much, especially when times are tight like this, and be stuck with it and out that money. It is what it is. 

Question, how much more efficient does ITC-100 really make a forge?? Like actually? I noticed princess auto has it for $70 a pint. Its normally $100+ in Canada. Is it actually worth spending that money? Will I save that in propane in a noticeable amount of time? If its really worth it, I think I will order it. I just dont want to spend the money if there wont be a noticeable return. And so far, every time I didnt follow your guys advice, it has cost me more and more $ haha... So Im listening from now on!

Im actually to the point of trying to make some money with bladesmithing once I get a my design figured out. I have been unable work more then 20 hrs a week because my back is getting so bad. But, as theres no lifting in blacksmithing (compared to being a sawyer) I have had no back pain while in the forge. And with Lambowie starting up, it may be a reality. So efficiency is going to be important. So Im willing to invest in things that will prove helpful in that.

Spot heating versus even heat could end up as another endless debate. With multiple sing-flame burners, we can "have out cake and eat it too." On the other hand, ribbon burners are here to stay for a lot of valid reasons. Bottom line? No single gas forge is always beat all the time

Haha I agree Mikey. Ive determined that I need multiple forges... for now, this one will do. I dont mind spot heating so much really. 

What do you think about the ITC-100 though?? Is it really worth the money? Will I see that in fuel savings?

It is over priced, and always was. But, yes, it does work. I believe Plistix 900 is a far better product, for the money; as too are various kiln washes that have been discussed on this forum.

I see. It seems like plistix 900 is an American product. With exchange and duty it gets real expensive... As far as kiln washes, are they all the same thing? If so its extremely cheap. Like $4 for 1 kilogram in Canada. But that sounds to low to be the same stuff and I have no idea what the chemical makeup of it is.. kiln washes seem to be really cheap though!

I use a mixture of roughly 70%zirconium 25%kaolin 5%boron  don't know what the final cost is but it's pretty cheap.

I think I see why Canadians buy the itc100. Ive been google searching for a good hour now and its looking near impossible to find plistix 900 or zirconium in Canada. I might have to go with the ict100. $70 is really cheap for a pint of it here.

Plus $70 for me is only $50 for you guys haha! The exchange rate is killer right now.

Okay, but if you go with ITC 100, put a small amount  of the "mud"at a time, into a water glass or clean jar. Then, add water until the courser grains fall out of solution, and paint the remainder on interior surfaces. You will find that this coating will "reflect" far more heat then a surface painted with the original mud does.

Oh ok! Thanks Mikey! I think right now Im going to do to insulation and refractory then test it out for a bit and see if it needs any changing. Then once Im satisfied, Ill get the Itc100 on it. And I will also continue the search for zirconium in Canada before I buy the Itc!

Thanks everyone for all the info!

ask pottery stores for zircopax

Heyyyyy there we go!! 2nd site on google! Just needed the right word. Even tho zirconium is in the product description.. oh well I found it now thanks to you!! Thanks!

And the boron, thats the dry borax powder you get at pottery shops correct? And they also list a few different kaolin types... it looks like EPK is the stuff tho eh?

So I think I have it figured out. One more question, is it safe to only use rigidizer on the kaowool? I just fired it and am ready to do the Kastolite but got to thinking, before I make it permanent, can I use it as is with the rigidized wool walls/ceiling to test it out and see if I need to do more? I have read lots about guys using rigidized wool, but is it truly safe?? Like would you feel comfortable if your kid walked in and was breathing the air around the forge? The floor/flame face is still the 1/2” mizzu so Im not worried about that.