Re-planning forge build

[Paul Kin]

Ok so you guys saw my last attempt in the “need help burner angle” thread. I tried my best to use what I had on hand and, as you guys predicted, it did not work. So, I am going to do exactly what I should have in the beginning, follow your advise! Shipping kills me here in northern BC but not much choice. Im still on a tight budget but I think I have it figured out... I think.

forge body:

the shape is based fully on 2 things; 1st being the firebricks I had on hand, 2nd is on the type of work I want it for. Its roughly 530 ci with 2 - 3/4” Frosty T burners. The walls/roof/floor are 2.5”.

Now, the brick was a down right failure. You guys knew it would be, I was thick skulled as usual and tried anyway... So time to listen! My rough plan is 2” kaowool with kast-o-lite 30 over it. I can get enough wool and KOL shipped and still be within my budget of about $150. Another option, theres a place in Prince George that sells something called moldit x. I believe its vesuvius brand and might have 47% alumina and is rated to 3000°. Thats all the info I could find on it. 55lb bags for $80 and a friend of mine is in PG for a couple more days... 2 bags should cast the whole forge. It puts me a hair over budget but its doable. But I think this would be a major heat sink, like the bricks no?
 

[Paul Kin]

I forgot to add rigidizer! Like I said, I do plan to follow your guys directions. It may cost me now, but I really think it will save me in the long run.

[Frosty]

A 50lb. sack of Vesuvious is enough to make half a dozen forges like yours. You should be able to sell small quantities to other smiths wanting to build a gasser after seeing how well yours works. One 1 sack! You only want about 3/8" on most of the liner and up to 1/2" on the floor, figure Maybe 10 lbs max. 

It isn't as good an insulator as KOL but it's what you have available, if you don't lay it in too thick it won't be too much of a heat sink. It'll work just fine.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Paul Kin]

Thanks Frosty. So maybe 1 bag of vesuvius and the kaowool then. That would also give me lots of patches and maybe even build another forge! 

One other thing, I read about pizza oven guys using stainless needles for structure in the refractory. Much like rebar in concrete. But I havent seen anything about it in forge builds..?? Is it not a concern in forges? The roof wont collapse?

[Paul Kin]

Ok I have made many phone calls today... my only option for non bulk 8# 2600° wool is in 2” thickness. I will have to just go with that instead of 2 layers of 1” I suppose. I was just about to pull the trigger on the moldit X cement when they said, oh we also have vesuvius super 3000! Its a pre mixed mortar rated to 3000. 5 gallons is $106, 1 gal is $57. I did some looking and it seems to be the go to for many Canadian bladesmiths. I have until tomorrow morning to decide. Have you guys heard of the super 3000? Could coat a lot of forges with 5 gallons!

[Paul Kin]

One thing to note is the super 3000 is a refractory mortar, whereas the moldit X is a refractory cement. My understanding is that the mortar is more of a crack sealer/brick repair and the cement is meant to be thicker like a forge lining. But a lot of the Canadian bladesmiths seem to use the super 3000. Some say it bubbles, some dont. But I can find almost nothing on the moldit X... not sure which way to go here.

[Paul Kin]

My materials are here! I plan to put it together this weekend and I had some questions. Canadian forge and farrier finally got 13lb pails of mizzou and 1” wool in stock so I made the order. I didnt get the rigidizer cause there was a really good chance it would freeze before it got here... and its supposed to be -10 all week at night next week still too and I wanted it before we all get locked down... I will try to find colloidal silica here in town though. Anyway, for the burner holes I was going to screw 3/4” nipples into the thread protectors going into the forge and cast the mizzou around them. Essentially extending the “flare”. Does that sound right? Or am I going way overboard here?

If that does sound right, should I weld on some sort of mechanical way for the mizzou to stay up there? Like a short piece of ss exhaust with teeth like an axe bit ready to be welded in if you get what Im saying... Im terrible at explaining things sorry. Im worse at understanding things without pics though! I will post pics of my ideas tonight if I get a chance!

[Binesman]

I'm guessing you've already been building   or at least I hope you have been.  the "flare" isn't as important as you would think with a T burner.  I build a bit of one in on my forgers either through forming the castable or by cutting firebrick.  Other than that I don't use a flare on my forges.

[Paul Kin]

Yes sorry its lined! Sort of... I did the floor 1/2” thick, let it dry then started the the walls/ceiling. Problem was, the floor used 3/4 of the 13.75 lb pail... so I managed to coat the burner holes and ceiling and it was all gone. Had to improvise with this stuff on the walls:

so we will see if the walls hold up at all... I know a lot of Canadians are using it in small forges with limited success so maybe itll last a few firings... Ill see after I get a chance to fire it I guess. But I will be ordering some of that kalacast AR tech refractory soon. Cheaper even then mizzou! And still 60% alumina.

[Frosty]

Stove cement  sigh. Sure lots of people do things incorrectly all the time. A propane flame is not only really HOT it's very chemically active and refractory cements and mortars are NOT intended to be in the fire. Oh well, it'll let you light a fire ad tune the burner, maybe even get some practice forging things. for a while anyway.

I sure wish you'd asked about how thick to make the hard liner, you would've had plenty. 

S'okay, that sort of thing happens to everybody who's actually DOING THINGS and we're okay with those kinds of mistakes. Though we WILL yell and loudly if we think you're doing something more dangerous than blacksmithing is already.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Paul Kin]

I know... it was my only option for the time being. It costs right over $1/pound to ship the refractory here and the faster shipping took a week... so I am just hoping to get exactly that out of the stove cement. Tune the burners and heat treat 2 blades. The burners point strait down onto the mizzou floor so Im hoping the cement lasts long enough for that.

I tried my best to listen I promise! I have a really hard time fully understanding read words sometimes. Hence why I failed grade 10, then graduated early after moving to a school with all the basic trades lol. But that was a decade + ago now anyway. Thats just to help you understand why I dont always seem to listen . 
 

I do appreciate all the help you guys give though! And I am very careful about being careful! I have worked as a mechanic, welder, and a miner in the last 10 years so I do have a lot of experience with dangerous things and how not to get hurt. 

[Paul Kin]

Here it is! Seems to work well from lowish psi all the way up. Only ran for a few mins. Wanted to see how long to get the steel hot but it wasnt long enough. Its cooling now and I will fire it later tonight again then it should be set! I think?

and yes, as you predicted and I did realize, the cement is not happy at all... but I think Ill get a few heats out of it.

[Frosty]

It's O-K-A-Y Paul, you don't have to apologize to anybody unless you do something out of line like curse or call somebody names and I doubt you're that kind of guy. You're young so you're always in a hurry, we've all been there and have stories about how much it cost to undo. Having to spend the $ to get another bucket of refractory sent to you is a perfect example. NO big deal, honest.

What in the world made using the wrong stuff your "Only option"?  Nobody was holding a gun on you was there? If yes point out the dastardly cur, a few blacksmiths will carefully explain the error of his/er ways.  Laugh Paul I'm funning with you. It only SEEMS like things don't move fast enough, the world WILL slow down before long. Honest, it will.

If you don't understand something we've said, just ask for clarification, we can and will explain. Reading will get easier if you slow down, it's too easy to just look at words and not SEE the meaning in sentences. Been there myself. If something doesn't make sense relax and read it again. Reading word by word isn't as helpful as it might seem as it's the combinations of words that carries the meaning of the statement. It's just a skill, like any skill the more you do it the better you get. 

Just don't expect everything you see written here actually makes sense, some doesn't and lots are written by folks who don't speak English and a computer is translating for them and that can get just plain weird.  

Frosty The Lucky.

[Paul Kin]

Haha thanks Frosty. Ya this sort of thing happens from time to time. I learn best through mistakes it seems! But I already knew this.

lol well no there was no gun or person for that matter. More or less my impatience to use the thing asap... which is essentially the same thing with me haha! 

I dont often ask for help and even more rarely ask for clarification so thats on me! I do often read and re-read and so on. Thats entirely how I learned blacksmithing infact! It was a lot of reading, trial, error, more reading, and repeat.

All your guys help and understanding is huge to me. It also helps me help others so you in turn are also helping others! And we all appreciate it!

How do the flames look though? I mean its not hot but once it was running about 45 seconds it seemed to run really good pretty much through the whole range of the regulator... there was also 6-10” of dragons breath through the range too so not enough O2 possibly?

[Frosty]

If you're not making mistakes you're not doing anything new. They say you learn from your mistakes so where are my PHDs?

Something I tell folk who are in a hurry. The only thing rushing does is make your mistakes permanent more quickly. Believe it or not you'll learn the craft much faster if you take your time.

It's burning pretty rich, needs air. Make small changes then test. Take notes so you can tell what change did what. One change at a time or you'll never know what happened to make it do THAT.

You need to get over not asking for help, it'll hold you back big time and not just here. You have a good long life ahead of you start good habits now. eh?

Frosty The Lucky.

[JHCC]

"Learn from other people's mistakes. Life is too short to make them all on your own." -- Eleanor Roosevelt (attr.)

[Paul Kin]

Good point! Most of my knowledge comes from my mistakes. But I am fairly good at taking my time at some things, like blacksmithing for instance. When something doesnt work out I always stop and find out why. Either by reading or just going over it in my head. Most of what I make comes strait from my minds eye. 

Ok so if it needs more air, the mig tip is trimmed to far correct? My understanding is that not enough air can be 3 basic things with these burners. 
1. Wrong size T. But I am now using the 1x3/4x1 T 

2. Mig tip is to big? I am using the standard .35 tips though so I will leave them for now.

3. Last reason and I believe its the one I should look at, the trimmed tips are not inducing enough air. They are trying to push now rather then pull the air.

Correct me if Im wrong of course! I made a stupid mistake and trimmed them ~1/16” before the forge was done cause they werent running well out of the forge.... I know I know! I even scorned myself as I was deburing them. So I will put my new tips in and try it. IF that doesnt get enough air in, I will tap the 1/8 npt holes a bit more. I purposely left them tight for this reason. Its quite difficult to untap pipe thread . But I promise Ill do one at a time! Ive made enough mistakes on this forge already.

Oh you and my wife would both agree on that Frosty! She was always the one asking for help when we built our house cause I dont like to bother people. I built my shop, raised every timber, entirely on my own for that reason. I also enjoy working alone though.

Thats a good point JHCC! I should practice that more often...

[Buzzkill]

We sometimes tell employees "If you aren't making any mistakes you're not trying hard enough.  If you make too many mistakes we can't afford to keep you."

[Mikey98118]

At first glance, those flames look heavily reducing. At second thought, they look to be curing out not "calcined" refractory. ask Frosty if they look familiar.

[Paul Kin]

Buzzkill thats a good way to put it! Depending on the type of business of course lol. 

Mikey, maybe I should just run it a bit more then? I did the second curing cycle last night so it should be ok now to use right? I will run it a bit this weekend and see. I have extremely good ventilation so Im not worried if it puts out more CO then usual.

[Binesman]

You are not asking for help.  You are asking for information.  That shows you have an interest in learning, which in turn gives us an interest in providing you with good information.

[Paul Kin]

Binesman, thats an interesting way to look at it. And definitely true. I certainly want to learn, which is why Im here asking now. Partly for myself and partly so that I can relay what Ive learnt. Especially to my boys when they are old enough.

[Paul Kin]

So I dont think the burners need much for tuning! This is the dragons breath when cranked right up:

And heres the burners at a lower forging heat:

thats the best pic I could get of the burners with my phone. I dont know if its the IR or just the heat but it was tough to get. Its funny though, my wood fired forge doesnt even put out 1/4 of the radiant heat that this propane forge does! I can reach into the wood burner with 12” tongs without a glove easily. The propane, I have a hard time with 23” tongs!

[Mikey98118]

On 4/2/2020 at 5:08 PM, Paul Kin said:

Mikey, maybe I should just run it a bit more then?

That's exactly what Frosty had to do with his.

Why do I point to a need for further calcining, rather than a burner rebuild? Your forge is in the orange and yellow range; too high for that kind of bad burner performance. Also, there is no blue tertiary flame beyond that heavy orange exhaust flame.

So, my bet is on the calcium horse; ride it, cowboy

[Paul Kin]

Sounds good to me! I will keep running it. Trying to get a friend to figure out what he wants for a forge then We will make another order and I will re-line this one properly! 

Oh and I had just enough wool left to do doors and another mini forge! Its about 70 cu/inches. 4” wide 6” long tubular chamber with a flat floor. Would a 1/2” T burner be to big or just about right? I figured for little hooks and knives, something easy on fuel would be nice to have. This is it so far

 

Thanks guys!