Ferrous Beuler Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 How much is your shop worth? could be read into several different ways. I took it as "what would it cost to replace blacksmithing tools". Let's say you've been burgled and several things are missing from your smithy:(. Do you have insurance on those tools? Would your homeowners or renters policy cover them? Could someone here relate their experiences on obtaining insurance specifically for their blacksmithing tooling, and/or their dealings with the insurance company after an actual loss? What was it like to go through the process of assessing the value of your tools with the insurance broker, do you feel the values stated are fair? Dan:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave M Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I had to get separate insurance for my shop. My home owners would not cover it because it is a business, or thats what they told me. I didnt want to take the risk ( fire, theft or weather or some one getting hurt). I made sure it would cover replacment of building,supplies and tools. I don't have the policy in front of me but they did send an inspector out to see every thing and tey told me to keep receipts for all purchases and try to make a photo or video inventory of every thing. It lets me sleep a little better knowing it is covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Try making a list of all the tools in your shop then sit down with some catalogues and jot down the cost of replacing them with new tooling in case of theft or natural disaster. As if you had a new for old insurence deal IE, the dozen or so tongs you picked up for $3-5 each, how much new $20 + ? When you do this be sure to have a stiff drink by your side as it gets very scary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Replacement cost is a big part of it. If all my stuff disappeared and I was given what I had paid for it over 27 years of scrounging it together on the cheap I couldn't replace hardly anything and it would take about 40 years to do that---prices are higher and I'm in a less favored location for finding things now... Time to do an annotated digital camera inventory and put it on a dvd and put that in the safety deposit box at the bank! eg: it's not just a 8# sledge it's a WWII British (broad arrow marked) straight pein sledge; that hand hammer is a wrought iron bodied, steeled face hammer, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcraigl Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 (edited) I worked as a carpenter for ten or so years and acquired a decent amount of tools. I got into collecting antique hand planes and had a nice collection going. Then my shop got burgled... Thomas gave some really good advice above (annotated photo inventory). I had renters insurance at the time and am not sure how my homeowner's coverage compares. They gave me 80% stated value for all of the tools and 100% stated value for all of my reloading equipment. The rub is... I had a couple of days to come up with a list of what was stolen. I missed about 20% of the items that were stolen. That happened about 15 years ago, and I still occasionally run into a situation where I think I've got a tool, but don't. Some dirtbag meth-head probably hock'd it. Wayne's right about the stiff drink too. I had a really nice set of leather carpenter's bags that were loaded. The bags cost me about $250, but loaded with the tools that were in them they were worth at least a grand probably double that, and they were able to carry them out with one hand! All the antique planes and chisels are basically not replaceable. If you do find them, I can't afford them anymore as all that sort of stuff has become very collectable and ebay has driven the prices way up. Wayne talks about $20 tongs. Well, I don't own a pair of store bought tongs. I've made every pair I'm using right now. What are they worth? What about all the other tools that you've made. What's a 1/8" x 7/8" slot punch made out of H-13 worth? You can't go to Sears and buy one. I won't sell you mine. What about that hammer eye drift that you made that perfectly fits the hammer handles that you can get in your locale? What's the worth? I think its time for me to do the annotated inventory thing too. I don't have a large number of tools. But I don't really have any tools (blacksmithing wise) that I dont regularly use. And it would really suck to have to start over at this point. I felt like my insureance overall treated me fairly, except for the antique stuff that they gave me 80% of what I paid for that has appreciated by thousands of percent by now. Would they even cover me at all if it was a fire? That might be the most appropriate question for me right now. They might flip out over having a smithy in the building. Edited July 25, 2008 by mcraigl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I have replacement on my homeowners policy but if I ever had to replace any of my hot punches, t&b swages, tongs and hammers that are old my agent said that they would be considered antiques not tools and therefore not replaceable. The same for my anvil and swage block, all antiques. Now the shop built stuff has no value, none. The arc welders, gas welder, Presto-lite are considered professional tool and depreciated because I can buy used ones if these are stolen so they are old and have no value. Same for drill presses and small electrical tools. They are old and have no value. The computers, old and no value. So the long and short of it is if I'm burgled I'm screwed or so says my agent unless I want to pay for extra riders to the tunes of about $700 a year extra. I glad there on my side and that I'm in good hands. Whatever would we do without insurance.:o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chyancarrek Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 They are old and have no value. Dang, now I know where I rate . . . my insurance company will probably just take me out back of the barn and shoot me if I ever go down . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I suppose it depends on your neighborhood but $700/yr doesn't sound like a big hit for adequate coverage. We have a farm rider on our home owners and it covers casual or day labor and because it is a farm rider even covers the shop to a degree. That will change if the shop turns commercial of course but for now it's less than $100/yr and lets us hire teens to clean barn, pick and load hay, work on building projects and the like. I spent about $200 more than necessary when I installed the door locks on the house for class II locks and deadbolts. The savings amount to nearly $150/yr off the home owners and has paid for itself several times over in the 10 years since I installed them. There are similar things you can do to ameliorate insurance costs in your shop, especially if you have employees. Heck, having a certified safety training session one time will pay for itself within two years. As will first aid classes. If your insurance Co. won't cut you a break for such things, it's time to find another one. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 There are so many scam artist out here that your insurance company will cancel you for the smallest thing after they pay your claim. They aren't much help out here. Seven hundred may not sound like much but after five years it is $3,500 and that would replace most of my antiques that aren't worth anything anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 You're right about the scammers and how the insurance Cos like to handle claims. Luckily for us, Alaska law doesn't allow them to cancel you just for filing a claim. To balance it they will prosecute you to the fullest for trying to run a scam. I couldn't replace my portable welder for $3,500, even a used one. Smithing tools are really rare around here and ridiculously expensive when you do find them. Still, most of the smiths I know don't insure their shops. As part of our insurance package we have dogs, very friendly but also very protective and loud dogs. BIG dogs, Great Pyreneese Mountain dogs. They're quite good at letting us know if anyone pulls off the road into the driveway. Lots of tire tracks where people turn around on the lower end. Alaska law has a better attitude about defending yourself with deadly force as well. I don't think I could shoot someone over stuff but don't advertise that fact. It'd take a particularly brassy or desperate type to come up our driveway and past the dogs. If one or more got so far as to breaking and entering I'd probably feel they were too dangerous to let go. Of course I'd give them a chance to lay down on their face(s) before taking more positive action. Happily, in 36 years up here the situation's never come up and I hope it stays that way. Frosty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrous Beuler Posted July 26, 2008 Author Share Posted July 26, 2008 Great stuff to share guys, thanks- and keep it coming. mcraigl, that part about being open with your agent that you have a smithy is the one glaring omission from my post, it crossed my mind but I left it out. I assume that lots of us just go quietly about our smithing and deliberately leave the insurance man in the dark on that one. I'm thinking that may be a wise approach, after all do the costs of maintaining adequate(?) insurance make it worth the returns if you do wind up needing to file a claim? Bentiron certainly has a point worth considering in the outlay over a few years to your insurance guy compared to what he might (grudgingly?) remitt on a claim. Putting an investment into security may be money better spent, locks, motion sensor lighting, etc. Keeping a "junkyard dog" seems like a good idea depending on where you may be but here in The People's Republic of New York where the population ratio runs about three lawyers per citizen, bad things will happen to you if your gaurd dag mauls a burglar, sad but true. Yup, keeping a low profile and stout locks may be the best course overall for the hobby smith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWooldridge Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 I also have a bunch of loud dogs and a reputation for shooting first and asking questions later. Word gets around - at least to the locals. My sons used to tell their friends NOT to come up to the house at night without making a lot of noise ahead of time so I would be sure to be awake and alert. The ones you have to worry about are the strangers looking for something to haul off. We've had a couple of incidents in the 15 years we lived here but nobody has left bleeding (so far). If I had to replace everything with new stuff (for example, a fire loss), it would be well over $50K. Thieves are not be able to carry off the lathes, the mill or the power hammer - unless they had days to work on it - but the anvils and hand tools are easily transported. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrynjr Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 All the antique planes and chisels are basically not replaceable. If you do find them, I can't afford them anymore as all that sort of stuff has become very collectable and ebay has driven the prices way up. Jonesport Wood Co. Dave M. ought to be familiar with these folks, last time I was in Maine I visited the Hull's Cove store and they had just tons of hand plane tools and blades for wood. Their prices were fairly reasonable (2 years ago) You might want to check them out, for replacing some of your tools. They have an ebay store but I would call them and get some of their used items, their "unused" items on ebay seem way pricey to me. The number / letter punch set and wooden mallet I bought were very reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firebug Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Well my shop is located on my property, we have 10 acres and just built a house. The building is an arched type structure much like the military uses. It has a 4 foot straight wall before it arches over. It is 30 x 70 and 15 - 16 feet tall in the middle with a walk thru door and a 10x12 door on each end. It will not burn. I built a second floor on the left side. It sits on a cement slab and is wired for all of my equipment. I have a 70 airhammer, a 165 pound airhammer, a iron worker for punching and shearing. a 14" cut off saw as well as a large horizontal band saw. A 4500.00 scrolling machine which also makes rings of almost any size. A 300 amp Hobart MIG with a portable feed. A 120 gallon industrial compressor with another 80 gallon tank. A very large roll around mechanics tool box full of stuff. Miller SP135 MIG and two sizes of cut off torches with bottles. Hypertherm 1000 plasma cutter. Little Beaver auger, and a core drill as well as a walk behind trencher. Numerous hand tools such as 6 palm grinder, drills, etc. God only knows how much the supplies I have gathered in the past 18 years are worth. 330 pound Euroanvil, 75 pound Mousehole Forge, very large twin screw chain driven post vice[expensive]. Several large post vices including one that belonged to my granfather. Numerous tongs and 3 Hofi hammers. I am sure there are several things I am forgetting. The 165 Phoenix air hammer and the compressor cost me over 10 grand. I have about 2000.00 worth of hammer dies for it. All of this xxxx for a one man show. I hate to even think about what it would cost to replace it. I have NO insurance on it. The good thing is it WILL NOT BURN. As a retired Fire Fighter/ Fire Investigator that means a lot to me. My last shop was built out of woooooood. It sits on the back side of my property with one way in and one way out. Most everyone around here knows I am ex law enforcement and carry a weapon MOST of the time. I even carry one when I cut grass. About the only way I can see losing it all would be from a tornado. Having said that, we have had at least 4 pass within a mile or less from us in the last 15 years. I watched one from my front yard less than a 1/2 mile behind us. I guess if I had a total loss to replace everything including the building it would probably be in the range of 75,000 dollars. That would hurt my feelings to say the least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J W Bennett Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 (edited) My shop and tools are refuge and my feeble attempt to hold on to a way of life that I feel slipping away. I have new,old and older tools and use them all. Money cannot replace them nor the joy I get from using them and sharing that joy with others. I have taken pictures and have a real good record of all my tools, however if they were to be stolen I would have a hard time shouldering the loss even if I had unlimited funds. I don't beleive I have many tools that don't have a story behind them that I carry with me like pictures of family members. And yes I am a sick man with no hope of a cure. I love to sit in my shop. John Edited July 26, 2008 by JWBIRONWORKS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Presently I have no insurance specifically for blacksmithing. I worry a lot more about liabillity issues than fire, fire of coures would do in the power tools and the heat treatment of most of my blacksmithing tools but most of the hand tools I made so I should be able to reheat treat them. It is really hard to say what a thief would take, he might really get you or he might only take things he could identify. We have motion detector lights which I think helps some I also think loud dogs help a lot. I can see a thief getting drills, grinders, welders, but I doubt that most would see much value in power hammer dies or drifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Metalmangler, over this side of the pond with the cost of metal thieves are pinching everything they can move. Your power hammer dies may not hold any intrinsic value to the theives but - scrap weight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironrosefarms Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 The scrapper thieves are my biggest concern. Scrap iron prices keep going up... It has come to the point it matters not how big or how impossible it seems to be, if opportunity lends itself you might just end up with it missing... I have a sister in law who after her husband passed closed down a concrete plant about 7 years ago. She went over to brush hog the out lot a couple weeks ago and found someone in the period of 3 days completely dismantled the plant and hauled it off. Some of the mixing structure was taller than a 3 story building... They even took down some of the fencing and the gates and took it with them too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philip in china Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 With the huge hikes in raw material prices scrap theft is only going to get worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 As ussual I am opperating in ignorance. I would think that stealing scrap would be as much work as a real job. If they do a complete job at least my wife will be happy.;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bentiron1946 Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 One thing that I have done to protect my investment in tools it to triple my homeowners liability insurance. I now have $1.5 million in liability on the property and I try, not to successful these days, clean and tidy. I have signs posted about the dogs, the snakes and my wild kids. I'm sure that someone would try to sue me over a dog bite from the shop dogs, the rattlesnakes or my wild child and that way I would loose it all anyway. Scrappers are a real problem out here too but they are the chronically homeless and addicts of one kind or another. They can't tell the difference between a nineteen century top and bottom fuller set and made in China claw hammer. When you cut the handle off they bring the same money at the scrap dealer. The only thing they get more money for is the brass items no matter if antique or new. As bad a my back and hip hurt right now maybe it would be a blessing is someone walked off with the whole mess.:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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