YAFBT - Yet another forge building topic

[Ulfhedinn]

I know all of my questions have been answered hundreds of times before, its just I find 100 different answers.

Question: 

Which forge and burner is the best all around forge?

I first am stuck between a vertical or a horizontal.  I *THINK* I could do casting with a vertical??? as for traditional horizontal, I think I have decided on a round one though Ive read the shape only matters for heat up, once the work goes in the shape does not matter anymore?  Single burner or two? I think I built my first forge way to long.  I also have a coal forge I built that I use also, this way I do have a backup plan for pieces that don't really fit in the propane forge.

Then the burners, I think I've decided on building 1 or 2 T-REX burners as I hear they are the most fuel efficient.

Any advice is greatly appreciated. 

What I forge:

Im a hobbiest nothing more, I currently am forging fireplace tool sets, tongs, leafs and hooks, things like that.I want to someday forge a sword, but it won't be what I get excited over, I found I'm not as interested in making knives  as I have been in making towel holders, banana holders, and more artistic things.  Im not 100% sure what I want to do as I'm only a year in and still learning.

Current Forge:

My current forge is a two burner setup that is able to forge weld but I designed with several flaws. Now that my skill has evolved, my back burner has been acting up and become unusable.  One of the flaws was I did not make it so it would be maintainable very well, welded instead of having a collar for mounting.  So instead of messing around with it anymore I will build a new one.  This one also uses a lot of fuel, I think, nothing to compare it to.

forge - https://www.iforgeiron.com/topic/60383-first-gas-forge/

burners - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjqA4VQMpiM

 

Thanks for reading.

 

[Ulfhedinn]

I was unable to find a way to edit my post :/

 

Ive also thought about building two burners and just using angle iron and firebricks to make a modular forge.  How would heat retention and heat loss be? Would I get it up to forge welding temps?  What are the cons of doing this way because the versatility is very attractive.

[Frosty]

The short answer to your question is. None. AND if you want one to both be a forge and a melter then the best is way over the horizon. "A tool that does everything does nothing well," is an old adage because it's as true as it gets.

Whoever said any burner is most fuel efficient is either selling them or doesn't know what s/he is talking about. How heat is delivered is measured in two different metrics: BTUs / minute, hour, whatever and temperature. You need an adequate amount of both to be effective. Efficiency is a different thing entirely. 

I'm not dissing Rex's burners, they're better than most where it matters. Don't get your hopes up though, if you're running two burners it's going to burn a lot of propane. PERIOD.

Your latest post just came in. Sure, clamped brick forges work quite well if you use the right kind of fire brick for your purpose. My price for Morgan thermal ceramics, K 26 Insulating Fire Brick (IFB) is around $6. ea and you'll need about 12, not counting porch, to make a 300 cu/in forge. Figure more than 24, not counting porch, for a 2 burner forge. You'll need the steel to build the frame of course and I highly recommend you make one of these bolt together so you can replace bricks as they die without a whole bunch of hassle.

Okay, that's about all I'm going to say for now. As you noted already this has all been answered already and though there are a zillion answers from guys who don't know diddly but want to share what they don't know, read some and decide who's opinions to trust and filter the noise.

Learning to filter what you read for good material is an acquired, this is as good a time to practice as you'll find. Hmmmm?

There edit function is only active for about half an hour after you send a post.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

You can either pay through the nose to buy a Chile Forge, or read for the next six months to learn enough to build all you think you want from a forge.

[Ulfhedinn]

51 minutes ago, Frosty said:

I'm not dissing Rex's burners, they're better than most where it matters. Don't get your hopes up though, if you're running two burners it's going to burn a lot of propane. PERIOD.

I actually spoke wrong.  I should have said T-Style.  Im following your PDF this time.  My first go around I did not have the confidence to try it, now I do.

52 minutes ago, Frosty said:

 Your latest post just came in. Sure, clamped brick forges work quite well if you use the right kind of fire brick for your purpose. My price for Morgan thermal ceramics, K 26 Insulating Fire Brick (IFB) is around $6. ea and you'll need about 12, not counting porch, to make a 300 cu/in forge. Figure more than 24, not counting porch, for a 2 burner forge. You'll need the steel to build the frame of course and I highly recommend you make one of these bolt together so you can replace bricks as they die without a whole bunch of hassle.

 

So the more I think about this the more I like it.  I can easily get angle iron, and I'll purchase bricks, id bolt it as well.  If I understand correctly I can easily convert this from 1 burner to 2 or even three just by adding firebricks and a burner.  My concern is how well will this perform compared to kaowool, satanize, itc-100 liner?   Any cons I'm not thinking about? will it reach forge welding temps given the correct cubic inch? 

 

Thanks for the response, I know not all tool will solve for everything.  I only have enough for one solution currently and I am not sure when I will have more funds for another, so I am trying to pick the one that will allow me to do the most.  If there are things I can not do with one then I dont do them and I wait.  no biggie.  Thing is, I not think I need a two burner, I feel it was a design error on my part.  Im always having to heat so much metal just for the 4-5 inches I'm working on.  So id like to move to a single burner, but with zero experience with a single burner I want to make sure I am not screwing myself over.  Originally I was just going to make a single burner horizontal round with a style burner.  Was curious if the vertical was better,  I think that's more for small work like knives.  I want to do scrolls and whatnot so I do need some space to fit my work in, thats why I was shying away from the vertical.  The clamp together one has made me rethink my plans.   

 

Thanks again for your time

[Buzzkill]

Whatever you buy or build, it probably won't be the last one if you continue in this craft.  No matter what your primary use is today, that may not be true next year.  As your needs/desires change, so will the tools you need.   I've built a few, and pretty much by the time I've finished each one I've thought of things I'll do differently on the next one.

If you plan to do twists that are 2 feet long you'll need a different configuration than if you are mainly making bottle openers.  If money is no object for you then there may be options available to you that do not exist on a smaller budget.  The problem with asking what's the "best" is that depends entirely on the criteria of the user.  What's best for me may not be even close to best for you.   I prefer small and fuel efficient, but I am definitely limited on the size and shapes I can get into my forge.  Based on the things you described I would probably build a single burner forge with a chamber  around 10 to 12 inches long and with the opening around 6 inches in diameter.  However if you're willing to accept the somewhat fragile nature of insulating fire bricks, then a brick pile forge may be your best option, since you can quickly and easily reconfigure it as needed to fit your stock.

 

[Frosty]

HEH, HEH, HEH, The T is the easiest to make certainly not the most efficient nor effective! 

A well made IFB forge is comparable to ceramic blanket, hard liner and kiln wash forge for thermal characteristics. It won't insulate quite as well but it's close enough as to be insignificant. 

THERE'S BUZZ!  Hey Buzz.  

As Buzz says you'll have a number of forges collecting dust before you settle into A THING, if you ever do. 

A clamped IFB forge works nicely if you build two you can easily remove one end from each and put them together for a 2 burner forge. Hmmm?

Or heck, unbolt it and reconfigure it completely. I keep a case of IFB under a "bench" I use them to experiment with forge shape and size before I build one from blanket and hard refractory, then it goes back in it's box to collect dust till next time. Though sometimes I have a weird shape or size I want HOT so I start piling them up and slip burners in here and there till I like it. 

Anyway, good thinking about making a single burner forge, we all make silly too large forges when we started out. Heck I still make them larger than I need. Bricks make a good sized chamber naturally because of their size: 2.25" x 4.5" x 9". A 4.5" x 4.5" x 9" chamber is a good working size.  but is better suited to a 1/2" burner, maybe two. It's easier to turn too much burner down than try getting more from a too small one than it has to give. Yes?

If you were to use  more brick and  fudge it a bit smaller, 4.5" x 9" x 9" is pretty darned large without being crazy and if you squeeze a side in some a 3/4" burner will work nicely. 

Kiln washing IFB is a good idea, it makes it less susceptible to the high temp chemistry propane likes to do to things, is more mechanically robust so it doesn't scar up so quickly and it re-radiates heat back into the chamber more effectively. Just FORGET ITC-100! It is NOT particularly good in a propane forge, it's not designed to be. Think Plistex or Matrikote, see Wayne Coe he carries small quantities and can advise you on quantity, etc.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Mikey98118]

1 hour ago, Ulfhedinn said:

Thanks for the response, I know not all tool will solve for everything.  I only have enough for one solution currently and I am not sure when I will have more funds for another, so I am trying to pick the one that will allow me to do the most.

Nothing makes a better first forge for general wrought iron work than a brick pile forge, BUT the devil is in the details. Make it right, and you will probably never want anything else; make it wrong and it will eat a hole in your wallet. You need to ask a lot more questions before you build. Just for instance, what kind of burner in what kind of holder works best for the least in a brick pile forge? A Frosty "T" burner on a floor flange fitting.

Thermal Ceramics K26 insulating firebricks are the secret that make brick pile forges efficient; other K26 bricks don't; but these bricks need to be coated; at least on the side that faces flame. So you'll need to buy a minor amount of Kast-O-lite 30 for that purpose, or your bricks will suffer from flame erosion.

The second thing you need for fuel efficiency is a baffle wall outside of the exhaust opening. A brick pile forge needs to rest on something, like a square pan. Because its bottom can't be cooled by air currents, so it needs additional insulation. nearly fill that pan with Perlite from your nearest garden center before laying down the floor. Your forge will also benefit from a 1/2 thick layer of Kast-O-lite thirty on top of the floor bricks, but that can be added later on.

see to these details and you'll be a happy camper

[D.Rotblatt]

Gas forges are not as ideal for blacksmithing as coal forges, since odd shaped pieces often don't fit inside gas forges.  Given that, in some areas coal forges are not possible (like here in Los Angeles).  

For many years I've had a variable sized forge idea sitting in the back of my mind should I need it.  There are several designs online for this.  One that I thought might work is a wide top (maybe 14" x 14" or so) with burner in center held together by bolted pressure form an angle iron frame, matching bottom with walls of free standing bricks that can be moved so the interior can be different sizes.  That way the walls can be moved out to fit that  12" wide scrolled piece for your gate.  You will only get heat below the burner, but you can work many different sized projects.

Dan R

 

[ThomasPowers]

To quote Mr. Kane: Rosebud !