Video of curing and other questions

[Thursigar]

Hi all! It's been a long couple months but I have slowly and surely put together my forge and anvil. I was during kastolite 30 tonight and thought I would take a video to get your feedback while I waited. 

Some here are some questions on my final build:

1. How does the propane to oxygen mix look? 

2. I also attached a pic of the right inner side of my forge. Unfortunately it's where one of the kastolite seams is and appears to be cracking. Is this cracking back enough to put down another layer of kastolite? Right now I'm leaning no. 

3. I used 1/4 copper tubing to run from the burners to 1/4 turn ball valves on the side. However, it is ice maker copper tubing and Larry Zoeller said it wasn't safe. Obviously I respect Larry's opinion and was wondering what the difference between the two is and if anybody could give insight into exactly how unsafe it is.

4. Even at only 2 psi, it's getting up to forging temperatures. Is this normal? 

5. I managed to burn a test peice of steel while it was still orange. I thought steel had to be yellow to burn? 

 

Thanks ahead of time I appreciate all the amazing people here and their willingness to help us newbies! !

 

[Mikey98118]

 

go right ahead and put another coat of refractory on. It looks to me that your first coat simply is too thin.

You flames look acceptable to me.

Whether 2 PSI is low or normal would depend on what kind of burners you're running. BTW, don't expect to reach so same level of heat in for forge at the same speed, once you have a thicker layer of refractory hot-face inside it. On the other hand, properly closing down the exhaust opening with a baffle wall will raise the heat level back up to where it is now. 

34 minutes ago, Thursigar said:

I used 1/4 copper tubing to run from the burners to 1/4 turn ball valves on the side. However, it is ice maker copper tubing and Larry Zoeller said it wasn't safe. Obviously I respect Larry's opinion and was wondering what the difference between the two is and if anybody could give insight into exactly how unsafe it is.

Ice makers use small lines of refrigerant grade copper tubing. I know of no reason such tubing wouldn't be safe for LPG lines.

 

[Frosty]

The only really important issue I know of with using tubing off a role is using the right connectors.  Flaring tools will have different flares for different size tubing and compression fittings are size specific. 

I don't know what Larry's issue is but would like to. I don't know much more than I need to to make these things work. I'm always up for more info.

Frosty The Lucky.

[timgunn1962]

I suspect Larry Zoeller has to deal with folk with all levels of technical knowledge and experience on a fairly regular basis, and the only safe option is to assume complete ignorance (and perhaps even stupidity) unless there is very clear evidence to the contrary.

If the question was simply "Is it safe to use tubing from an ice-maker for my gas lines?" with no further information and only yes/no options for the answer, the answer would have to be no.

If the question was "I have found some tubing which seems to be suitable. It came from an icemaker. I have checked the dimensions and condition of the tubing and it seems to be annealed copper tubing to ASTM xxx. I have sourced the correct fittings, have made a couple of trial flares on it and they seem to be ok. I have assembled the fittings, pressure tested to 60 PSI and found no leaks. Just trying to cover all the bases: is there any reason you can think of, that I might not be aware of, to feel it might not be safe?", the answer might be rather different.

If the latter is actually the case, I'd also be interested to know his reasoning.

Almost all of the refrigerant tubing I get to see is brazed or soldered, not flared. 

[Thursigar]

39 minutes ago, timgunn1962 said:

If the question was "I have found some tubing which seems to be suitable. It came from an icemaker. I have checked the dimensions and condition of the tubing and it seems to be annealed copper tubing to ASTM xxx. I have sourced the correct fittings, have made a couple of trial flares on it and they seem to be ok. I have assembled the fittings, pressure tested to 60 PSI and found no leaks. 

I was going to test last night but kept it low because of his comment. The connections I'm using is a .25 flared connector with a .25 flare nut. Another pic attached. 

I noticed 2 pinches in the copper line from not being gentle enough. I used pliers to try to straighten it, is this a problem (pic attached).

6 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

go right ahead and put another coat of refractory on. It looks to me that your first coat simply is too thin.

I did 3 sections of the kastolite and the area in question is think because i was attempting to transition the seam.

6 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Whether 2 PSI is low or normal would depend on what kind of burners you're running. 

Frosty T's baby!

6 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

6 hours ago, Frosty said:

The only really important issue I know of with using tubing off a role is using the right connectors.  Flaring tools will have different flares for different size tubing and compression fittings are size specific. 

I used a flaring tool that had different sized holes, one of which was .25. Is that what you are referring to?

 

[Mikey98118]

I would consider 2 PSI from a "T" burner, making such nice flames to be a cause for celebration; not concern. Just relax and enjoy the efficiency you're getting.

[Frosty]

Yes, that's the tool I was referring to but if the tubing isn't suitable for being flared then it's not. Period.

Bending tubing can be tricky, do you have a bending tool? It's a longish coil spring you slip over the tubing to bend, it takes special talent to kink tubing in a bender. I've managed though.

Another trick is to slip cable through the tubing and bend over a mandrel. You have to have the right cable and a deft touch. Good luck finding cable this small and still flexible enough to make the trick work and retrieve the cable without damaging the tubing.

It's the same trick used to bend steel pipe without kinking it for example old school loggers bending. 2" steel pipe with 1" steel cable slid all the way through and attached to a dozer. Pipe is then bent over a stump by the dozer. 

And getting good flame through a T on 2 psi. is outstanding. The only thing I might, MIGHT do would be rotate them so they're not competing for the same intake air. On the other hand if it's working the way it's set up it's not broken don't fix ANYTHING.

Frosty The Lucky. 

[Casapa]

I think fridge pipes comes sealed and cleaner inside, nominal sizes may be different along with wall thickness, which may cause problems with compression or flaired fittings.

You could always buy a mini bender, they cost approx £15 in Uk for cheap versions, maybe less, so not so expensive.

Thats fuel lines for an Oil boiler I recently installed.

[Thursigar]

7 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

I would consider 2 PSI from a "T" burner, making such nice flames to be a cause for celebration; not concern. Just relax and enjoy the efficiency you're getting.

 

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

And getting good flame through a T on 2 psi. is outstanding.

Frosty The Lucky. 

That makes me extremely happy to hear coming from you two! I actually had a challenge with not letting the forge get too hot while curing. I tried to counter that by shutting it completely off in cycles. 

7 hours ago, Frosty said:

Bending tubing can be tricky, do you have a bending tool? .

I dont..but I see another purchase in the future. Is the line safe enough to use in the meantime?

[Thursigar]

I take it back. Psi cant be at 2. Either my gauge is faulty or my regulator is, and I'm leaning towards the regulator. When I went to test the copper lines tonight with higher pressure the gauge didnt budge. I know gauges are really just yo give an idea and can be inaccurate, but since this is new and not moving above 2.5 I'm thinking something is wrong with my regulator? Here is a pic of both. 

It it maybe because I mounted the gauge where I did on the T instead of in the middle?

[Frosty]

I put the gauge right after the regulator. What I see though is a LOT of pipe tape. If a tiny bit got wiped into the line it may be gumming the gauge up say preventing the needle moving no matter what the diaphragm does.

I believe you've discovered why you don't use T tape on gas lines. Did you follow the rules applying it? 1 1/2 clockwise turns starting a couple threads from the end. NO MORE!

Been there, got the T shirt.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Thursigar]

On 1/20/2019 at 11:47 PM, Frosty said:

I put the gauge right after the regulator. What I see though is a LOT of pipe tape. If a tiny bit got wiped into the line it may be gumming the gauge up say preventing the needle moving no matter what the diaphragm does.

I believe you've discovered why you don't use T tape on gas lines. Did you follow the rules applying it? 1 1/2 clockwise turns starting a couple threads from the end. NO MORE!

Been there, got the T shirt.

Frosty The Lucky.

I did make sure to leave thread at the end, and that is precisely why you see so much. By moving the tape down, I had to go over the nut part of the nipple as well. 

I was given instructions along time agothat it was 2x around. not 1.5?

Also, I am happy to report that everything seems to be working fine now, though on not sure what changed. I was able to work the psi up to 30 this morning. I kept it there for about 7 minuites until I started to get concerned about the kastolite degrading. Turner it back down to 2-2.5 and it still jeqtednup my railroad spike beautifully. 

 

Pretty happy camper and 8 appreciate everyone's help. Wouldn't be forgingwithout you guys!

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I always trim the extra tape off, just for appearance sake.

[Frosty]

2 turns? I sure could be wrong, been a while since I used tape on gas line.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Another FrankenBurner]

I would definitely remove/replace enough line to get the kinks gone.  The corners of the kink are now very weak, especially if the kink was sharp.  If you didn't kink them very badly, you may not have leaks, but I don't like to risk it.  Copper is cheap compared to catastrophe.  I am a refrigeration tech and have fixed several kinks and previous kinks which leaked(refrigerant).  Leaking 30 psi propane near an ignition source sounds like no fun.

I also recommend a 1/4 turn ball valve after the regulator before the hose.  A remote safety shut off which is quicker then trying to turn off the bottle.  You can also plumb your gauge down near/after the regulator to make it easier to see while adjusting.

As to the gas(yellow) tape, it looks like you taped the flare fittings.  Don't tape flare fittings.  Flare fittings use a metal on metal seal.  Taping the threads does nothing but get in the way of threading the fitting all the way which could prevent a seal.  Tape the pipe(NPT) side of the flare fitting, just not the flare side.  Also, for next time, you don't have to tape the mix tube where it attaches to the tee fitting.  

The gas tape in my tool bag states 3 full turns on less then 1 inch pipe and 4 turns above 1 inch.  Some other brands of gas tape state a minimum of 2 full turns.

It's a good looking and working forge.  Nice job.  

[HojPoj]

AFB, bit of a thread hijack here, but how would you normally make permanent joints?  I've got a notion in my head to do some permanent plumbing on my forge stand, but needed to know whether soft solder was acceptable for LPG (that's not in a hot zone), or is a brazed joint the only acceptable way to do it? 

[Mikey98118]

In socket joints it should be okay.

[HojPoj]

Alright, I wanted to throw that out there because I've got a fair number of tubing to MPT adapters that appear to be solder/braze sockets for direct joining to tubing (they were in a big lot of miscellaneous hardware I got at thrift store).

[Another FrankenBurner]

I am not a professional when it comes to this advice.  Most of my copper plumbing experience is with refrigerant lines.

I do not recommend soft solder on propane fuel lines.  Some soft solders melt below 400°F.  In a fire, if a solder connection were to let go, it could be very bad.  Several code jurisdictions require brazed connections with a material which has no less then a 1000°F melting point.  Some places don't allow even brazed connections for LPG.  Compression fittings are also against code in some places, only flare fittings are acceptable.  Some places don't allow copper lines at all for LPG.  With all this code I am talking about, they are usually for typical applications which are much much lower pressures then what we play with.  Natural gas and copper should never be mixed.  You can research the code in your area for answers.

I work with mostly restaurant appliances and hvacs which are dealing in those much lower pressures.  I have seen flare lines and compression lines for fuel gas in appliances but never soldered or brazed.  The most experience I have with copper propane lines are in trailers and all those connections have been flared or brazed.  I recommend only refrigerant grade (type K) copper lines as the copper is thicker.  If flare fittings are to be used and the copper lines are hard copper(ACR), it has to be annealed first.  I use a high percentage silver brazing alloy and proper flux.  In the industry, it is often called and sometimes labeled silver solder.  I have brazed connections with a MAPP torch but it is easier with an oxy/fuel torch.

[HojPoj]

Thanks AFB, those were the tidbits I was after.  My original rationale was that domestic water can get up to 60 psi and the joints hold fine with soft solder, and that short of a catastrophic failure of the regulator the LPG line would never see more than 30 psi anyways.  However, I was completely ignorant of the myriad of locale-specific codes regarding that type of joint.  While I'm free to take my chances with the lead-free stuff (typically a higher melting point), I'll probably refrain from doing so.

I was hoping I would be able to get away with not using silver solder as the cost of flux and wire are considerable when you only need to do a couple joints- I unfortunately don't have any HVAC friends that'd be able to help me out, either :-\  I suppose if I go ahead and buy the stuff I'll at least be able to do some brazed tooling for my lathe.  Side thought, have you done any hearth brazing using your forge? 

[Another FrankenBurner]

I have not.  I had to google hearth brazing, just now.  I have stacked a few hard fire bricks to contain the heat of my torch a few times for odd tasks.  I am Ron Reil's apprentice and brazing with the forge is one of the things he wants me to learn.  

Another thing that came to mind propane, for anyone who doesn't know it.  Don't have the bottles inside any structures.  That is code here.  The bottles have an over pressure safety vent.  I have had a freshly filled bottle vent on a hot day.  If that were to happen inside, near a forge, it could be very bad.  The bottle would not stop venting until it was no longer over pressurized. 

[ThomasPowers]

Cars are a big problem with that too.

[Thursigar]

On 1/20/2019 at 2:03 AM, Mikey98118 said:

 

go right ahead and put another coat of refractory on. It looks to me that your first coat simply is too thin.

 

 

 I did this casting in 3 sections, and the "cracking" is where I overlapped those sections. I applied it via hand instead of the tradtional pour. I only have 5 more pounds of the castable refractory left, so definitely not enough to do an entire layer. Should I just try to "patch" those cracks and throw on a layer of Plistix? I tried searching IFI for info on repairing or patching cracks and only came up with one thread with the above suggested. 

On 1/20/2019 at 2:16 AM, Frosty said:

I don't know what Larry's issue is but would like to. I don't know much more than I need to to make these things work. I'm always up for more info.

 

For those wondering, I asked Larry why the ice copper line wouldn't work, and he stated that it wasn't up to code. 

[Frosty]

4 minutes ago, Thursigar said:

For those wondering, I asked Larry why the ice copper line wouldn't work, and he stated that it wasn't up to code. 

Makes sense, Larry is selling burners and hardware so he's looking at liability if he recommends anything that isn't legal. Liability is why I refuse to teach for compensation other than maybe a little help moving stuff. One bad recommendation could have someone else owning your: savings, inventory, home, vehicles, house cat, etc.

Frosty The Lucky.