Original Bowie knife

[-o0(GoldTrader)0o-]

Aloha Craftsman
I was watching the original Jim Bowie TV show. They said the series was based on a book called the "The Tempered Blade," by Monte Barrett. In any case in the first episode they show the steel being hammered and quenched. Later adding a brass parry strip.

What can you tell us about the steel that was probably used in the original Bowie knife made by James Black, and what properties do you think they were trying to achieve?

What kinds of steel do you supposed that they used ?


Did the steel need to be the folded over and over like in the “Kill Bill,” movie?

Rumor has it was that there were ten separate steps.
Was the blade used for prying?

[Chuck Richards]

The movies have glamorized the Bowie Knife. James Black was supposed to have made the original Bowie. There are many questions that have not been and will probably never be answered like what was the steel used and was it folded. It depends on the account you read, Some say it was a mono steel, probably simple carbon 1060-1090 range (since that was all they had). Some have said that Mr Black forged in a piece of meteorite. If so then it had to be folded to homogonize the billet. A description found by one of Jim Bowies descendants describes the knife as a big butcher knife. Also the only knife that has been documented to have been owned by Jim Bowie was just that. Looked like a big Forsner. Was it used for prying??? Pet peve time. If it was it was abused. The tip of the knife I mentioned above was broken off so it probably was. A knife is not a pry bar. It is not meant to take the lateral pressure. There are many that will provide some pry bar effect. But if you need a prybar or screwdriver then please get one.

[Thomas Dean]

The story I was told by the blacksmith working the forge in Old Washington, ARK. was that the handle was of the coffin style, unlike either of the ones posted. Old Washington is where Mr. Black had his smithy and is where Mr. Bowie had his legendary knife made. I totally agree with using a knife for the purpose intended...not a pry bar, but I'm sure they were used for whatever needed at the time. I'm not a bladesmith so really can't expond on the material used but having a blade made of 2 or more types of material seems unlikely during this time frame, let alone the location. (have ya ever been to Old Washington, ARK.?!? ) The brass strip was to use to catch the blade of the opponent and wrenching it from their grasp. The other blade's edge would bite into the softer brass causing it to 'stick', then, Bowie if you will, would give his knife a twist causing his opponent to loose his weapon. So the story goes anyway.... "Rumor has it was that there were ten separate steps." No one really knows how the Bowie knife was really made as Mr. Blade kept no records of how it was done and he had no one to pass his knowledge onto.

BTW, The Blacksmith shop in Old Washington, ARK. is built within 50ft of where they believe Black's original shop was. AND if you are in the area this coming weekend (March 15-16) they are having the annual Jonquil Festival and the 4States Iron Munchers will be set up demonstraiting the art of blacksmithing. Old Washington is located approx 45mins northeast from Texarkana, TX/ARK . Lots of fun and FOOD so you can't go wrong!

[ThomasPowers]

Note that at the time period "monosteel" was not that common, especially on the frontier! (Huntsman having worked on his process in the 1740's) What was available was generally blister steel, shear steal or double shear steel. Shear steel and double shear steel, the most likely candidates, do include a layering/welding process as part of their manufacture *before* any finished product is made from them. (I burst out laughing in the original "Pirates of the Carribean" movie when the fellow was extolling that sword as "folded steel" as the cook's knives were all probably shear steel and so folded as well.)

As for meteorite; use of meteorite by someone not experienced with using it would probably make for a *much* poorer steel than using stock material already to hand. Nice legend but they don't have Black saying "I'm going to put this nasty meteorite material full of inclusions and elements that cause problems in forging into your knife cause I don't like you very much and want to see it fail in use!"

For more information on what was available at that time may I commend to your attention: "Steelmaking Before Bessemer, vol I Blister Steel, vol II Crucible Steel"

Note that for that time and place having cutting tools made of more than one type of material was the *norm* with all chisels, axes, and drawknives, being made of wrought iron with just the cutting edge of high carbon steel welded on, either a jump weld, lap weld or even what folks today would call San Mai construction. Knives did tend to be single material construction though and generally produced in Cutlery centers and exported/shipped to places in the US.

[HWooldridge]

A similar thread is running here...

Paco Kelly's Leverguns.com

...with some additional commentary.

[-o0(GoldTrader)0o-]

Thanks for that other thread.
When Geronimo was fleeing from invaders he and his family used to climb up and down vertical cliffs very rapidly.

A knife is not a pry bar. It is not meant to take the lateral pressure. There are many that will provide some pry bar effect. But if you need a prybar or screwdriver then please get one.

I thought that "sticking it in a rock and standing on it," was a perfectly normal use for a Bowie when you are being chased.

I totally agree with using a knife for the purpose intended...not a pry bar, but I'm sure they were used for whatever needed at the time.

Well I guess that is the question within a question.

What do you suppose were the uses knives were built for in the mid 1800

[Don A]

What do you suppose were the uses knives were built for in the mid 1800

[pete46]

Yea Don ,you Would Need A Box O Bowies To Clear A Mountain.
Oh! Are There Any Legal Ninja Moves & If So That Wouldn't Be Very Ninja?:rolleyes:

[nonjic]

or you could tie a piece of paracord to the lanyard, and jig it loose from the crevise and haul it up to you when you reached the next ledge

a strong knife is useable for things other than cutting if its the only strong metal object youve got to hand.

To cut with.

A knife is, and always has been, a cutting tool. Any deviation is, in one way or another, abuse.

Think about that climbing deal for just a minute.... you get one step out of your knife, then it is gone. If you've climbed above it, then you can't retrieve it (how does the guy in the picture get his knife back when he proceeds to the next ledge?). If it was some kinda one shot, life or death situation... sure, anybody would sacrafice a knife for their life, but stuff like this is not normal, or even common. I can guarentee that any self-respecting Apache could do all of the climbing he needed to do with his knife in his belt.

Yeah right. Who

[Don A]

a strong knife is useable for things other than cutting if its the only strong metal object youve got to hand

Absolutely. I've used a knife as a froe, hammer, crow bar, surgical tool, swizzel stick, screw driver, spatula, lock-pick, electrical switch (don't ask), back scratcher, toothpick, trowel, etc., etc.

BUT, the question was:

What do you suppose were the uses knives were built for in the mid 1800

[philip in china]

To cut with.

A knife is, and always has been, a cutting tool. Any deviation is, in one way or another, abuse.

One of the reasons I would never own the latest "survival" knife being sold a s a combi knife/axe/machete/saw/nail puller/hat stand/file/car jack etc. is that a knife is a knife and as such is for cutting. You CAN get a combi and it will do both jobs badly! Some tools can be made as combis (e.g. combi wife and striker) but generally you are better with separate units.

[Steve Sells]

I must Disagree Phillip.

My Wife and I are in our late 40's, as such I am sure I have done many things to annoy her over the years. So I do NOT want her holding a large hammer standing above me, as my striker, because it would give her easy opportunity to "get away with it" and I am not ready to die yet. :p

[EWCTool]

To define a authentic Bowie knife "It must be long enough to use as a sword, sharp enough to use as a razor, wide enough to use as a paddle, and heavy enough to use as a hatchet". This ment that the knife was used for just about everything in the wild west. Another thing to keep in mind is that the original Bowie Knife could have been made with the only intention to kill. It just so happens to meet the specific criteria of what a froutiersman needed.

[matt993fod]

And you're a blacksmith?! For shame, Don A. :-D

lol, just joking.

As blacksmiths, we can afford to invent different uses for our tools. After all, if they break, we can make new ones! :-)

I am not sold on the legends of the bowie knife. After all, there has been so many different "bowie" knives made since, it is next to impossible to know what the exact style or construction of the original blade could have been. At best we can do what has already been guessed here, and guess based on common materials and construction techniques available at the time.

[matt87]

To define a authentic Bowie knife "It must be long enough to use as a sword, sharp enough to use as a razor, wide enough to use as a paddle, and heavy enough to use as a hatchet". This ment that the knife was used for just about everything in the wild west.

Sounds like a leuku or a parang or a billhook to me. These tools have been used for a long time to chop, carve, and in extremis, as a weapon. If your life depends on the function of a small group of tools, you avoid damaging them as much as possible. IF you can't clean the black powder residue out of your gun, or you HAVE to use your knife as a pry-bar, you do so, but you avoid it. If you have to build a fire in a hurry and you just snapped the blade off the only chopping tool you have, you're going to have great fun splitting kindling with your teeth...