Anvil fabrication/features

[Will Vick]

I'm doing some upgrading on my anvil, its a piece of 4 inch square 4140 kelly bar from a rathole rig, weight is about 80 pounds. Currently the waist is square tubing and the foot is a round plate.

I'm going to be adding a solid waist, a heavier base (inch or inch and a half thick) and an upsetting block.

I've also been building a round horn, but i dont know if i want to add another 8 or 10 inches to the length without a much heavier waist than i currently have planned. 

Im looking for opinions on what features are worth adding, and if adding the horn as a side horn would be useful.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Depends on what you are making.... I don't use the horn much on my anvils.

My first thought was to stand the 4" square on end to put all of the mass under the hammer. If you need to check a length for flatness just hold it vertical. As to the horn, maybe use it as a small cone mandrel vertically as well.

With the tube cut off of the square bar, add a plate to the tube with a hardy hole.

[Will Vick]

I have another section of 4 inch square to make a waist with, it performs as well as the other anvil in the pic so id rather keep it horizontal. I definitely like your idea for the tubing, i dont have any easy way to put a hardy hole on the anvil

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I am doubtful that you will see much gain by adding a solid waist. Try this as an experiment. Mount the other piece vertical, and try it that way. With all of the mass under that hammer instead of just a portion of it when it is horizontal you might see a better gain.

[Slow learner]

Hi Will. Not knowing your finances. scrap gathering opportunities or your anvil configuration necessities; I don't know if my suggestions will be useful. So I offer my thoughts knowing they may not be applicable.

 

I would find square tubing, heaviest gauge possible, and longer in length in relationship to the face of the anvil. would drill holes in the tubing and weld "posts" onto the bottom of the face that would insert into those holes as snug as possible. I would carefully cut the bottom of the plate off  so I could weld the posts to the tubing after inserting the posts in the tubing. I would then pour with lead and then replace the removed section.

Second option: without removing the bottom section of tubing I would cap one end or both(if both make a pour hole) and pour with lead. The lead will secure the "posts". I would leave length in the posts when doing this method. If I desired more height I would then add a base of whatever configuration I thought would work. With the added weight and mass you could add your horn with no worries.

I realize the lead may cost some and that is one of my concerns in offering my thoughts. There are "cheap" boat anchors that would work if you cannot source scrap lead. Of course shipping costs are something to consider if you have to go that route. Tire shops will usually let you get it for scrap value. Your location says Moapa so there should be some diesel shops in the area changing tires also.

You could also use sand for fill. Not as good as lead but still some weight for horn addition.  Of course take precautions to not be breathing lead fumes. 

PS. lead used to be easier and cheaper to get. I have worked on "anvil" done in this fashion and it works.

 

[JHCC]

18 hours ago, Will Vick said:

I have another section of 4 inch square to make a waist with, it performs as well as the other anvil in the pic so id rather keep it horizontal. 

If it performs as well horizontally as the other anvil, it's going to perform a lot better vertically. Please read the (many!) posts on the forum about block anvils: you will find that the more mass there is under the hammer, the more rebound you will get.

[Frosty]

Will: Don't make the all too common mistake of painting yourself into the corner of a mountain of unnecessary work thinking you need a London Pattern to have an anvil. Horns are of limited use in the real world of blacksmithing and that mostly as a fullering die for drawing out.

If you really want it laid flat it's thick enough it'll work okay, not as good as on end but okay. Welding a waste to it is only going to make it heavier not more effective. Not UNLESS you're going to go for 100% penetration welds it won't. 

It's a good thing to have different shape bottom die surfaces to work on, no argument there, none, a horn is just a lot of work for limited utility. Instead put various radiuses on the edges of the block you have, grind a swage into one face even. It'll be less time with a grinder for ore utility under the hammer. Don't want to mes up a nice face? Don't, only modify two edges and one face on one side of the block and simply flip it over for the clean shiny face. Oh heck make the stand so you can stand it on end for heavy work.

IF you weld a horn to it you'll lose a whole bunch of highly desirable features for one that's mostly cosmetic. make a horn from that second piece, heck make two one round the other square. 

About a stand, rather than doing a bunch of heavy section welding make the stand so it cradles the bar and recess a couple high strength rare earth magnets in the contact surface. The stand, (I like steel tripods myself but that's just me) will provide a rigid ground for the anvil and the magnets will prevent it from bouncing out of the rim.

With just a little bit of edge grinding that's a beautiful anvil as it sits, only needs a stand hot steel and some hammering.

If you hammer hot steel or heck anything on it it is an anvil. Period.

Frosty the Lucky. 

[Frosty]

Oh shoot, I forgot the portable hole! A piece of heavy wall sq tubing or a construct to provide a hardy hole on it's own stand at about the same level as the anvil's face. Portable holes are a whole lot handier than having one stuck in your anvil, you can move it where you want it freeing up the anvil for more mischief. They make a good helper to support long stock level with the anvil, on and on. Be creative. 

Frosty the Lucky.

[JHCC]

I have a portable hole I use for upsetting hardy tools; it would be fine for holding such tools as well. 

Mine is welded up from railroad tie plates and black pipe; the rail anchors and chain at the bottom are to add weight and reduce bounce.

[Lou L]

Fair warning:  I'm a dreamer who always tries for the complex when simple would suffice....

 

  I think it would be amazing to weld rods on each side of it.  Attached to those rods would be arms that are similarly attached to the base.  It would create a pivot point allowing you to stand it up for use on end or to lay it horizontally.  All you need is a way to pivot it and hinge it off one end of the base.

 

Either way it is a sweet chunk of steel and will serve well as an anvil.

[Will Vick]

One of the reasons i want to keep it horizontal is (like Frosty said) to have 2 long edges to put different radii on, from almost sharp to very round. I'm a welder by trade, so getting scrap is as easy as setting it aside at work, and 100% penetration welds aren't an issue. 

Another reason is i figure i can add a lot more mass under a longer face than i can under a 4 inch square face, possibly even doubling the weight of the anvil while keeping the mass under the longer face. 

What I'm looking to do is make my "dream anvil" so i still have a fair bit of planning left.

Here's a pic of a stake anvil i made a couple months back, cuz i can't get the pic of the horn to upload

Ps, thanks for all the replies, as pokey as I am about keeping this one horizontal, if i ever make another I'll know which way to orient it.

[Frosty]

That's definitely an option Scrambler and a good one. I was only trying to point out other possibilities I've seen some lovely anvils turned into maybe neat looking ASOs. I have to ask someone in the club got a pic of an anvil on display yesterday. The maker had spent almost 2 years carving and grinding a horn on a piece of forklift tine. A tine off a Port of Anchorage BIG forklift. The piece laid flat is about 4" thick x 6+" wide x 20" long with a long 12" horn ground out of the center of one end. That's just an eyeball estimate I scaled it using the tape in the pic. The guys who moved it guesstimated between 325lbs. - 350lbs. +/- it maxed a 300lb. scale just before the fork lift started to lift it. 

This anvil got set down into the wood block so it's laying on the block and I beam for a much better rebound but it's still better over the web of the beam.

It's an excellent example of making tools you don't understand or know how work. Had he forgotten the horn completely and stood it on end, a little grinding and polishing, radiused edges and smooth the saw marks out of the face and it would've been a marvelously effective anvil. Believe it or not it rebounds about 50-60% over the web of the I beam it's on and rebound drops off as you test away from the center line. Even that huge chunk of 4140 is flexing under a hammer and ball bearing used in the test.

Frosty The Lucky.

I'm posting this to make the point a person can get themselves into a huge job of work for cosmetics. Welding on a built up hardy hole is a LOT more useful than spending all that time grinding a horn. You can make bics to fit the hardy hole as well as everything else a horn is good for and more.

 

[Daswulf]

Were you using a dog to support the other end of that angle iron by the tape measure.  that's one well trained pooch.