Damascus welding in induction forge

[Frosty]

The white in white paint is TI oxide isn't it? I'm thinking TI might have contaminated the billet as it burned off the inside of the canister. As you said it prevented the canister from welding to the billet. 

I do not "KNOW" and I'll happily yield to someone with direct experience and knowledge. 

I'm making an educated guess, the facts seem to fit logically. Hmmm?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frazer]

I've never tried canister damascus so please apply the requisite number of grains of salt to my opinion.. When I see people load a canister with powder they will sometimes use an oscillating tool (sawsall [blade removed], jigsaw [same], etc) to vibrate the canister. I don't know how you're "shaking" it, but is it possible the cracks and cause of the "red short" are incomplete welds due to a lack of powdered 1084 in those areas?

I'm just spitballing here.

[Purple Bullet]

Frosty - Possibly, but white out is essentially the same stuff with a more rapidly evaporating carrier. The paint can doesn't mention whether it uses TiO or TiO2, but still, I would think that the fact that I got BETTER separation would indicate less permeation into the billet. Also, I had the same problem with the two previous billets (although I still think that improper packing contributed to the fish hook billet failure) and those used white out.

I'm going to grind on the other billets a bit before I call the supplier.

[Frosty]

Hmmm. What is the difference in binders between whiteout and white paint? 

Second supposition is you either didn't get good consolidation when you filled the canister or it wasn't hot enough in the center and or didn't consolidate it enough at heat. 

I made a vibrator for getting Kastolite to fill between the crayons in my NARBs. I used a piece of 5/16" rnd stock with a small piece of scrap welded to one side. It fit between a pair of angle iron tabs with holes drilled and I spun it with a hand drill. I ended up clamping the form to the table to keep it from flopping all over creation. I still had to rod the Kastolite between the crayons.

Powdered steel in a canister probably doesn't need such extreme vibration to compact but it IS dry powdered steel and not smooth so it'll key together and not slip naturally to full compaction. 

I'd consider using a press in conjunction with vibration if it continued to be a problem. Heck, even a potential concern. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Purple Bullet]

It is entirely possible I didn't get good consolidation, but the only billet that heated unevenly (showing dark areas as the rest of the billet glows) was the fish hook billet. The last cable billet showed no signs of cracking until I started to draw it out. Then the cracking started on the edges, where I would have thought it would have the best consolidation. The first cable billet had consolidation issues near the middle of the billet. I think all the burning zinc jetted out through there. 

Spark Test on 1st billet

This had the core of three sections of old galvanized cable.

Spark test on Fish Hook Billet - This billet probably had sections of carbon steel fish hooks at surface, unlike cable-cored billets.

Spark Test on RR anchor (1060) for comparison

[Frazer]

Even if it's welded it doesn't necessarily mean it's a strong weld. I don't know if that applies with canister damascus or not, but I don't see why it wouldn't.

To use (and hopefully not butcher) Mark Aspery's cow poop analogy, suppose you have a pile of cow poop and it has been sitting in the sun for a couple hours, the outside is staring to dry (in my crude analogy these are weak welds or voids or cracks, and while I say "the outside", I suppose they could be anywhere). If you're walking on your merry way and squish it straight down, the cracks remain on the edges and get bigger. Meanwhile the ones on top of the pile and (perhaps) in the center get squished into the bulk of the mass and consolidate or are hidden by the surrounding material.

That's my thinking anyway. I'm not saying its right, but to me it makes sense the cracks would appear at the edges as the billet is flattened into a knife-like shape.

[Purple Bullet]

I appreciate that Frazer. Probably not the first or last time someone compared my work to cow poop - Seriously, that makes sense, but it doesn't explain why the metal that was the powder remains so hard after annealing and why the sparks are so different from other carbon steels.  

I don't know if the video shows it well, but the 1060 has long yellow sparks with starbursts on the ends. The metal that was the powder throws a shorter, more orange spark. You can also feel the grinder gliding over the billets while it digs into the 1060. BTW the 1060 has only been worked enough to straighten and somewhat flatten. It was just left to cool on my steel table.

[Frazer]

You can blame Mr. Aspery for my making the comparison 

That I can't explain. Not even with an analogy! The sparks do seem off to me.. If you end up having the powder and/or billet tested with the XRF I would be interested to hear the results. If there are high levels of Ti in the cracks that could be useful information as well.

[Purple Bullet]

I made a run to New Orleans. A precious metals dealer I've traded with said he would use his XRF on my samples. When I got there, he wasn't there but a girl was using the XRF on some jewelry. I told her I'd like to have my samples checked for carbon, titanium, vanadium and tungsten. She said her machine wouldn't do that and tested a piece I brought in. It only reported Iron. I suspect she doesn't know how to really use it, but neither do I.  

The spark, hardness and red shortness make me think HSS, but it's hard to imagine that kind of mistake in a commercial operation. I think the cheapest and most effective way for me to test what is happening is to buy some powder from another source and see if I get the same result.

[JHCC]

I imagine that a precious metals dealer wouldn't need to know about different steel alloys, so they might have an XRF machine that's only for nonferrous metals. I imagine that such a version might be less expensive and therefore more profitable for them than one that could also analyze ferrous metals.

On the other hand, a scrap yard might well profit from being able to identify various stainless or tools steels as well as nonferrous metals, especially if it means a couple of extra bucks per ton. The yard I used to take my scrap to (now closed, alas) tested some shafts for me, and their machine not only gave me the specific alloy content, but also definitively classified it as 4140.

[Purple Bullet]

JHCC - I recognized it. A Thermo - Fischer Niton. I don't know how to use them but before I retired from the chem e position at a major oil corporation working in the Gulf of Mexico I lobbied hard for us to get one. At ~$10 grand it would have saved us a lot of time and money by not having to wait for a lot of our analysis. It could even have changed the way we operate by .. well never mind. I was about to climb back on a soap box for a cause that was lost long ago. I think some of the bosses had stock in the analytics company we sent samples to.

While there are probably different models, the one I wanted to get had many "modes" that had to do with how sensitive it was to certain elements. I still want one, but they are still around $8K which is a bit much for a hobby toy. If I could find one for a grand I'd snap it up.

[Purple Bullet]

On 4/2/2017 at 9:20 AM, jason0012 said:

I have recently been considering adding an induction forge to the shop in the near future and was a bit curious if one could be used for damascus welding and what sort of problems might arise. It would be primarily used for production forging in my shop which I know these are excellent for. I know welding flux chews through forge linings at an alarming rate, would it harm the copper coils? and would I need the entire billet covered in the coils, or could a simple loop get me up to an even heat? If need be I will stick to propane for welding.

Sometimes when you decide to drain the swamp, you end up fighting alligators. My intention was to finally answer the question. I got all excited about another way to make cable damascus that I think will look even better than regular cable damascus because, let's face it, cable damascus is mono steel (IPS), and besides I'd never done canister. 

Well, I've never actually made a knife from a layered billet either. I had started a few and after making a mistake somewhere or the other, put it aside. Now, while I'm waiting on some more powder steel to come in, I went back to one of those failures and tried to make something of it. So here I present my first welded layer billet in a simple twist damascus, a paring knife for my wife.

 I didn't have a problem with flux, but I heated first then applied a light sprinkle. Remember, all you need is enough to melt and seal the edges. In the future, I think I'll try getting the strips very clean and flat (this was band saw blade and strapping bands) , clamping tight and just dipping in diesel.

As for coils covering the metal, I try to move it back and forth to get an even heat. If it is heating unevenly I will move the cooler part closer to a coil. Yes, the speed of the heating is a problem, just like the speed of my motorcycle is a problem. I no longer pop wheelies accidently. I did on my first test ride.

This knife isn't perfect either, but the mistakes I made would have been the same in any forge (leaving an overhang in my stack), but I'm learning.

[Frazer]

I like the pattern. I've had good luck with low layer twists and when I take the plunge and make a knife it's my go to method. Has it been hardened yet? It looks like there are a few spots that didn't quite take.. Sometimes those will open up during the quench and it's a bummer. I have an integral that now lives in the "box of shame" after one small area split open on me.... Oh well.

If it has already been hardened/tempered then they're no big deal. But I'm not a bladesmith so what do I know.

 

[Purple Bullet]

Hardened and tempered. The only heat source other than the induction forge was my toaster oven. Quenched in cooking oil and tempered at 425F for 70 min

[Purple Bullet]

...as to the quality of the welds, agreed. I have a long way to go to call myself a blade smith, or any kind of smith for that matter. And being just a hobby is no excuse for shoddy work. 

I wanted to finally answer the question "can an induction forge be used for Damascus. I think we all really knew the answer already, but none said  definitively that it could.  All my initial billet welds were good, it was allowing an overhang in a twist that got me on this one. Like I said, I'm learning. A self-taught man has an apt student, but a fool for a teacher.

This knife will cut onions, potatoes, andouille and french bread. My wife is happy with it. I think she's going to put it on the refrigerator right next to our grandchildren's art work.

[Frosty]

8 hours ago, Purple Bullet said:

A self-taught man has an apt student, but a fool for a teacher.

Only if the teacher doesn't try to keep ahead of the student. There are better ways to learn a thing but if DIY school is your choice it's better than not learning at all.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Purple Bullet]

Amen, Frosty. Actually, I can recall a high school teacher who was really bad. I actually learned more in the class because I enjoyed running rings around her. Weird motivation, I know. It doesn't work that way in the self taught scenario unless you are REALLY schizo. OH YEAH? THEN WHY DO YOU KEEP TALKING TO ME? Shut up! They aren't supposed to know about you. Excuse us while we hash this out.

[Frosty]

Well, My my my. I have a much better relationship with my voices. I do my best to keep ahead of myself when teaching myself something new. Investigate first, research, talk to people, experiment, observe, read, talk experiment. 

I have a regular system and I'm sure to be reading and talking about step 3-4 while experimenting on step 1.

The voices say it's time to start dinner then get back to the Glue War thread. I wonder what we're having?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Purple Bullet]

Thanks for the understanding, Frosty. I wholeheartedly agree with your methods. It's why I resurrected this thread. I felt that while it imparted some very good information, it never really answered the question definitively.  I want the next person with that question to know that in at least one case, for one type of Damascus, the answer is "yes, you can." I really believe that in the canister case the answer will be yes as well, but between grandkids, cutting grass and it's too darn hot, it may be a while.

While I agree with your methods, when I can't find a case of someone trying something (and reporting it)  I get all "Star Trekky"  and "boldly go where no man has gone before". I've had jobs where a foul-up on my part could kill someone. Thankfully, I never did kill anyone, my foul-ups were minor. Now that I'm retired I feel free to make all the mistakes I want. And then some.

I did get the new can of 1084 in from another source and tried out a larger piece of cable imbedded in the cannister. Again, using white paint, the cannister started to come apart with what at first looked like a solid billet. My breaker tripped again on a second heat and I decided to take the can off. In the process, some areas on one end broke and revealed some cable that was not welded. The other end seemed solid. Sparking that end with the grinder showed nice long sparks with bursts on the end. Grinding on the other end threw a shorter spark that was reminiscent of the sparks on the first batch of 1084 I tried. So it is possible that the short red spark was due to incomplete consolidation. I'm not totally convinced of the quality of the first batch of 1084, but I might try taking the first batch  blank (I profiled the billet into a blade shape but it is still fairly thick) to red heat, sprinkle some flux on it, bringing it up to welding heat and let LG 50# take a whack at it. I fear I will end up with a very thin, wide blade, but at this point, there isn't much to lose. If that then throws a long yellow sparks with bursts I will have discovered a new use for the spark test! It's probably old news to some, but it is new to me.

[Frosty]

One of the things I like most about the craft is the lack of definitive answers and the never ending learning curve. Just about the time you think you know THE answer someone will throw a different answer monkey wrench into your data stream.

Anybody on the drill crew could kill another with a wrong move. Living with the same guys 24/7 in remote locations makes you hate everything about them. No matter how hard or what we'd been screaming at each other about I'd trust any with my life and did. 

The dull sparks from your billet are in my opinion evidence of incomplete welding. What makes bright sparks is the friction energy imparted to the chip being scraped off by the grinder. The harder the steel the more energy and hotter the chips. 

Unwelded steel powder won't require much force to pop out of the billet and is REALLY unlikely to be hot enough to be boiling or burning the carbon in the alloy. 

Hmmmm, rather than forging the current knife blank even thinner, how about folding and reforming it into a billet? I wouldn't jelly roll it but that's a possibility, especially if you have swages for the LG. 

I think it'd be more likely to weld properly so you'd have a more useful piece of blade steel and it would yield more than just the experiment would. 

Just listening to the voices here.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Purple Bullet]

Good thought, Frosty. Hmmm. Jelly Roll sounds delicious. No, I don't have swages for the LG. In fact I'm not even sure I have the correct dies. When I bought it, it was in pieces and some of the pieces were home made replacements. I don't want to drag this thread through one that already exist on IFI (then we would be cross-threaded, wouldn't we?) But my hammer is usable, but needs work. I'm hoping I'll learn and pick up parts at Quad State. 

I'll probably fold and weld. Remember that the middle of this billet (as is) has three strands of IPS cable. Folding and drawing back out will stretch those strands into an interesting pattern. Not what I imagined when I started, but it wouldn't be the first time that happened.

2 hours ago, Frosty said:

Anybody on the drill crew could kill another with a wrong move. Living with the same guys 24/7 in remote locations makes you hate everything about them. No matter how hard or what we'd been screaming at each other about I'd trust any with my life and did. 

That sounds like the diving crews we had. It wasn't so bad on a barge where there was lots of space but some boats didn't have much. The boat where i got my nickname had bunks stacked four high in a tall fiberglass building. In rough weather guys on the top bunks better strap in! We had a crew once on a tugboat that stayed out in rough weather for a couple of weeks waiting on weather. It was so rough you couldn't play cards because they would slide around. There was a cardboard backing for a tablet in the galley that someone wrote the word "BORED!" on. Someone else came along and added "BOREDOM RETURNS!" then "THE SON OF BOREDOM", GIDGET GETS BORED, BEACH BLANKET BOREDOM, " etc. until the cardboard was filled front and back with BOREDOM movie titles. Now THAT was bored. Likewise, we had each other's lives in our hands, but I was thinking more of the engineering decisions and procedures I wrote doing chem e support. I guess because that wasn't reciprocal.