Newbie needs help with burner behavior

[EnglishDave]

1 hour ago, Mikey98118 said:

Back before I became a doddering old man, I used to love combining craft materials, such as wood and iron, or glass and iron. BUT, sawdust and and flame are a total no-no. Hope you are being careful to keep all flammable materials well away from your forge.

That is exactly why I have set up my forge outside in the backyard where the only thing likely to catch fire is my beard

[Mikey98118]

That will make your local fire department very happy. It is very good to not be breaking the rules when you eventually meet them. Especially when your shop is busy burning down; been there, done that. Talk about really bad moments

[EnglishDave]

10 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

That will make your local fire department very happy. It is very good to not be breaking the rules when you eventually meet them. Especially when your shop is busy burning down; been there, done that. Talk about really bad moments

Ouch! Hoping not to have that experience any time soon! I did burn a bit of grass and part of a shrub the other day, does that count? 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

On 4/7/2017 at 5:58 PM, EnglishDave said:

That is exactly why I have set up my forge outside in the backyard where the only thing likely to catch fire is my beard

Take it from one who has experience with gas kiln's, eyebrows, mustaches and hair on arms & head will burn as quick as the beard. I learned from experience you can't dodge a propane fire ball.

[EnglishDave]

25 minutes ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

Take it from one who has experience with gas kiln's, eyebrows, mustaches and hair on arms & head will burn as quick as the beard. I learned from experience you can't dodge a propane fire ball.

Do so many blacksmiths have beards as protection or to hide the scars they got before they had beards? 

[Frosty]

10 hours ago, EnglishDave said:

Ouch! Hoping not to have that experience any time soon! I did burn a bit of grass and part of a shrub the other day, does that count? 

Not unless you live in the shrub or the grass catches the neighbor's place on fire.

58 minutes ago, EnglishDave said:

Do so many blacksmiths have beards as protection or to hide the scars they got before they had beards? 

Deb really makes a deal out of it if I mention wanting to shave. I think she prefers if I keep as much of my face covered as possible. I don't know what it is but my hair doesn't burn very easily and it's naturally dry. Sure I smell hair smoke now and then and my arms are hairless after lighting the forge. I've never (knocking on wood furiously) had my hair actually catch fire and I've welded overhead without a hat, had campfires pop burning coals on me, etc.

I try to remember to wear one of my welding caps around fire but my memory sucks until I get a hot bit stuck to my scalp. Oh yeah, I've had hot bits of steel stick to my scalp and leave a little hole burned in my hair just never a blaze.

Frosty The Lucky.

[EnglishDave]

15 hours ago, Frosty said:

Not unless you live in the shrub or the grass catches the neighbor's place on fire.

Deb really makes a deal out of it if I mention wanting to shave. I think she prefers if I keep as much of my face covered as possible. I don't know what it is but my hair doesn't burn very easily and it's naturally dry. Sure I smell hair smoke now and then and my arms are hairless after lighting the forge. I've never (knocking on wood furiously) had my hair actually catch fire and I've welded overhead without a hat, had campfires pop burning coals on me, etc.

I try to remember to wear one of my welding caps around fire but my memory sucks until I get a hot bit stuck to my scalp. Oh yeah, I've had hot bits of steel stick to my scalp and leave a little hole burned in my hair just never a blaze.

Frosty The Lucky.

Shaving occupies valuable time which could otherwise be spent in the shop

[Frosty]

49 minutes ago, EnglishDave said:

Shaving occupies valuable time which could otherwise be spent in the shop

Or working the honey do list.

Frosty The Lucky.

[EnglishDave]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

Or working the honey do list.

Frosty The Lucky.

haha I thought I was the only one with one of those! Yeah right....

[Frosty]

1 minute ago, EnglishDave said:

haha I thought I was the only one with one of those! Yeah right....

No Dave, you are not THAT special, even ants do what the queen says.

Frosty The Lucky.

[EnglishDave]

Just now, Frosty said:

No Dave, you are not THAT special, even ants do what the queen says.

Frosty The Lucky.

I like to think of myself as more of a bee than an ant but the relationship is fundamentally the same 

[Frosty]

5 hours ago, EnglishDave said:

I like to think of myself as more of a bee than an ant but the relationship is fundamentally the same 

And do what the queen sayzzzzzz.

Frosty The Lucky.

[EnglishDave]

Back to the original point of this post

I have to say that with the various modifications I have made to the forge (raising the burner so less of it is inside the firebrick, refilling my propane bottle and building a 'baffle' wall of firebrick on top of the forge body to try to deflect potential exhaust gases away from the burner inlet) it does seem happier. I ran it Sunday for an hour or more with little indication it was going to sputter on me and had nice 'dragon breath' coming out of the forge after 15-20 minutes running, the inside was a good uniform heat and the small knife I was forging came up to temperature quickly.

Thanks all for the useful inputs....

[Frosty]

Excellent, good to hear.

Frosty The Lucky.

[EnglishDave]

Used the forge today to heat some thin steel to form into a handle for an art box for my dear wife   

It worked nice but I noticed during use that the ceiling inside has sagged alarmingly.

The overall construction is a firebrick shell lined with Kaowool which is then covered in a layer of furnace cement and then painted with Metrikote.

By the look of it the Kaowool has separated from the brick and caused the whole thing to sag. It still works but I feel I am now wasting a lot of heat inside the cavity which has formed between the brick and the wool, not to mention probably melting and vaporizing the wool (which I know is a bad thing)

So I am considering rebuild options. I have read the stickies and considered the various combinations of materials and wonder if rigid Kaowool sheeting lining the brick which is then coated with Metrikote would work? Do I really need a castable refractory if the brick shell and wool sheeting are rigid already?

So many variables and options involved here and I have tried to do due diligence by reading many many posts but still not clear on the exact role of the castable refractory. I do not plan forge welding in this one so protecting the wool from dissolving in flux is not required. I would use a thin piece of firebrick as floor so damage to the Kaowool also not really an issue.

Let the curmudgeonization commence 

 

[ThomasPowers]

Can you deign to tell us if this forge has a flat ceiling or is the firebrick mitered into an arch?

If it's flat you can hold the kaowool up using oxidation resistant wire ties.

If it's arched you may need to use a slightly bigger piece of kaowool to put it more in compression.

[EnglishDave]

Flat, it is basically a cubic box made of firebricks stacked two high for sidewalls and the one thick bridged across them as a roof

So are you saying it is OK to have Kaowool immediately in contact with the hot forge interior gases?

[ThomasPowers]

I don't see where I said that at all could you point it out to me?  

I did say you can pull the kaowool back up against the roof bricks using oxidation resistant wire ties to hold it in place.  A  method used in industrial settings.

[EnglishDave]

1 hour ago, ThomasPowers said:

I don't see where I said that at all could you point it out to me?  

Because I was asking about if it is OK to have Kaowool (blanket or board variety) as essentially the innermost layer of material inside the forge body (apart from a thin coating of Metrikote or similar)

Since you did not mention the need for any kind of hard refractory coating I wanted to check if I was understanding correctly...

[stockmaker]

Hi EnglishDave, I have included a picture of my 1.5 year old store bought forge.  It came with just an uncoated ceramic blanket which I used for about 9 months.  At that time I coated with Metrikote which only helped for a short while.  My answer to your question .....  " is OK to have Kaowool immediately in contact with the hot forge interior gases?" is two fold.  First it is ok to do it that way, it will not kill you (from what I have read) and the forge should work to at least orange heat.  Second, it is safer to coat it, as ceramic blanket does give off microscopic fibers that can linger in the air of your shop for a long long time,  My forge is in a simi outdoor area so I put up with the uncoated situation for a time, but as you can see from my forge the blanket takes a beating during use.  I felt my forge was already too small and coating with refractory would have made that problem worse, now after building a new forge I think I should have tried a 1/4" layer.  I am not sure if your forge is made to be adjustable?  If so Kaowool blocks may be the answer, but they are fragile, they give off a power when broken, I have a case so I know from personal experience.  Hope this helps.

[EnglishDave]

2 hours ago, stockmaker said:

Hi EnglishDave, I have included a picture of my 1.5 year old store bought forge.  It came with just an uncoated ceramic blanket which I used for about 9 months.  At that time I coated with Metrikote which only helped for a short while.  My answer to your question .....  " is OK to have Kaowool immediately in contact with the hot forge interior gases?" is two fold.  First it is ok to do it that way, it will not kill you (from what I have read) and the forge should work to at least orange heat.  Second, it is safer to coat it, as ceramic blanket does give off microscopic fibers that can linger in the air of your shop for a long long time,  My forge is in a simi outdoor area so I put up with the uncoated situation for a time, but as you can see from my forge the blanket takes a beating during use.  I felt my forge was already too small and coating with refractory would have made that problem worse, now after building a new forge I think I should have tried a 1/4" layer.  I am not sure if your forge is made to be adjustable?  If so Kaowool blocks may be the answer, but they are fragile, they give off a power when broken, I have a case so I know from personal experience.  Hope this helps.

Yes very helpful thanks. I think I am going to strip out the cement and fiber blanket from inside mine and start over, the blanket will probably be junked because it has the cement stuck to it (and was free anyway as I recycled it out of our old electric stove) and then replace the fiber with some new stuff and probably rigidize it as I have read about in here then cover it in Metrikote ( I have enough of that left from the first build to cover it I think)

I do not plan forge welding at this time so flux damage is not an issue but I did wonder what you have as a forge floor? I do wonder about both direct flame impinging on the blanket burning it up and also just the physical strength required to lay the work piece on. I currently use a thin slice of firebrick placed loose in the bottom of my forge as a disposable flame guard for this purpose and that seems to work well.

 

[ThomasPowers]

Please do NOT assume that if I only partially answer a question then the rest is right---It could be that I had a student arrive and so sent the reply and headed out to the forge. It could be that I had strong views on what I answered and ambiguous views on what I didn't answer. It could be that I felt that not enough information had been provided. It could be that I felt the topic had already been covered *MANY*! times before here and I was unwilling to go over it again. It could be....usw

[EnglishDave]

6 minutes ago, ThomasPowers said:

Please do NOT assume that if I only partially answer a question then the rest is right---It could be that I had a student arrive and so sent the reply and headed out to the forge. It could be that I had strong views on what I answered and ambiguous views on what I didn't answer. It could be that I felt that not enough information had been provided. It could be that I felt the topic had already been covered *MANY*! times before here and I was unwilling to go over it again. It could be....usw

I was trying to ask just one question really which was 'is kaowool (or equivalent) ever a suitable inner lining or is a rigid refractory coating absolutely required' but I may not have stated it clearly enough. Appreciate what you say and will try to ask one question at a time in future. 

[Mikey98118]

Well, there is no hard and fast answer to that question. For one thing, what kind of a hot-face layer is laid over the insulation mainly depends on how someone plans to run the forge; beyond that there are a lot of druthers involved. Generally, people like doing things their own way. So any issue that doesn't present a choice of right versus wrong way generates a lot of conflicting opinions; this here is a classic case of druthers being the main factor.

So, how does it look to you? You're absolutely positively right on the money! Well, kinda sorta...so far as it goes

Also, when you're hot, you're hot, and when you're not you're not, you're not

[Mberghorn]

On ‎4‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 7:57 PM, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

Take it from one who has experience with gas kiln's, eyebrows, mustaches and hair on arms & head will burn as quick as the beard. I learned from experience you can't dodge a propane fire ball.

I learned that one the hard way too.....The first time I went to light my first home built forge (long before discovering IFI) I noticed that the gas was running but my torch sparker wasn't igniting anything. Stupid me put my face down there to make sure I was holding the striker in front of the burner nozzle and struck it again. Lost all the hair on my face, gave myself a nice receding hair line and took the hair off my arm that wasn't covered by my welding glove. Not my proudest moment, for sure!