Andrew Leigh Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Ok so I tend to overthink things and this could be another example. Have procured this piece of steel and I want to turn it into this anvil. Now when I originally started this quest the purpose was knives only and the anvil was a square block with no hardy or pritchel holes. Having seen some of the real fun stuff one can do like making your own tongs etc. I decided to add the pritchel and hardy holes. Well adding those increased the machining cost by a factor of 3.5X and now the anvil is starting to get real expensive and I have not even had it hardened. This design is copied from a YouTube video. In most all the You Tube video's I have watched I can only recall twice when a hardy hole was used with the pritchel holes only used to make the pivot holes for tongs. So the real question is; will it be worth the additional cost for later convenience and the flexibility to do other stuff. Having never forged anything I am a little in the dark. Note that the edges will have a radius and not be bevelled as shown. Have not modified the drawing yet. Regards Anvil.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackdawg Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 You can just use a bit of scrap steel for that sort of pritchard hole use, (with a hole drilled in it, and you can have several with different sized holes) Hardy hole only if you are going to use tools in it, what tools are you wanting to use? I have a block I have picked up similar size to yours, (except maybe height, you dont have height in your plan). But I already have a little anvil which I will continue to use for hardy tools. But I dont use them much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Leigh Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Have no clue what tools I would use hence my problem. I think that for my use I could clamp whatever tools into a vice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crytin Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 You can make a stand alone hardy hole for a reasonable price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Look specifically at the use for the 145 x 150 x height unknown, block of metal as an anvil. Lots of possibilities. Adding holes will decrease the usable solid working face size to 115 x145. The holes may or may not be in the right position for use as a hardie hole or a pritchel hole. 115 seems a little short for a hold down, or a spring fuller hardie tool. The 35 opening below the hardie hole would seem a bit small for a hardie post and wedge to hold the hardie in place. The 2 clearance between the hardie hole and the main block of metal is close in my opinion. Look into a stand alone hardie hole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Leigh Posted March 18, 2017 Author Share Posted March 18, 2017 Thanks, I appreciate the advice. I think the answer is to dispense with the pritchel and hardy holes and to address the situation later if and when they are required. I want to get going now so I have redrawn the anvil without the holes. As per the advice on this site I have allowed for 3mm radii on all but one edge which will have a 5mm radius. This will present me with 6 working sides if required. Any comments on this would be appreciated. I will be sending I out for professional heat treating and wish to take it to 54 HRC, comments welcome on the hardness as well. The height is 250mm for interests sake so it should make for a nice newbie start up. Should clean up to about 43kg's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 18, 2017 Share Posted March 18, 2017 Why heat treat? HOT metal will be softer than the anvil. Unless you know the composition of the block of steel, how are you going to get the proper heat treatment, much less a heat treat to achieve a 54 HRC. And why 54? What are the projects that require a 3mm radius and a 5mm radius, and why that specific radius? Have you used a specific size radius on an anvil edge before? What was the application or project? Did it work as its was intended? Reading things on the internet and watching videos can be good, bad, or incomplete sources of information. Until you understand the why, and for what reason, you have need for more information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Leigh Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 Hi Glenn, thanks for all the help, I had stated the steel type on the drawing but in the fine print. 1. The steel is to Din 1.2174 and is a hot working tool steel (Thermodur) supplied in a fully annealed state. The data sheet allows for hardening from HRC 32 to HRC 58 depending on whether the quenching is done in oil or air. The steel is noted for it ability to cope with impact and was donated to me by a friend in the tool steel industry who believed that it would be more appropriate for an anvil than say 4140 / 4150. 2. Why HRC 54? Simply due to the fact that the individuals design I have been following was hardened to circa HRC 54. 3. As you can tell I am running blind here. The radii were derived from the data from on anvil fire and I used the size anvil that I have and assumed that on the odd occasion that I may need to form something slightly heavier. As stated the primary purpose would be to try my hand at forging knives but then can see my self making gadgets for campfire cooking etc. Tongs, hooks and the like. I honestly don't know where this will lead to. I would welcome any other suggestions on the radii. 4. Never beaten a piece of steel on an anvil before. 5. Indeed I have done some internet research and am aware of the pitfalls. It is for this reason that I joined this forum, forums I find to have better and more accurate information. 6. The reason for a square anvil is space. I wanted something compact that would take little space. I followed a guy on You Tube (have a quick peek below) Link removed and really like what he was using hence the design I initially came up with. So I am here to learn and all advice is very welcome. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 The second sentence in your reference about a radius on the edge of an anvil says The amount of radius is personal taste. You have a block anvil that looks nothing like the London pattern or double horn anvil shown in the reference. A quick internet search listed 4 anvil radius articles on IForgeIron, then other internet articles started to just reference each other, going in circles. Notice the words, I like, or I use, or other personal opinions to the radius size and where it is to be applied. You kept seeing the words cold shuts and avoid chipping, but no reasons for the specific size radius or the projects being made on the anvils. There was little information on WHY. There is no mention as to the radius on the near or far side of the anvil, and if the anvil is to be used by a left or right handed blacksmith. There was a mention on putting a radius on the hardy hole or pritchel holes which I found interesting. Find a 2nd block of steel and practice on it for a while. Your needs will change as you progress into blacksmithing and use the anvil for different projects. Should you radius your block anvil? That is totally up to you, but I would suggest you know why and how much before you start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Are we not supposed to post links to Youtube anymore? I see the link 2 posts up has been removed. Steel hates a sharp corner. A perfectly square inside corner will start a crack. An inside corner with a small radius subjected to stress will crack sooner rather than later. A large radius will crack later rather than sooner. The sharper anvil edge will be more likely to peel off or smoosh a sliver of the work piece's shoulder, leading to a cold shut, which is a blacksmith's term for a mechanically caused inclusion and will lead to a stress riser, which will lead to a crack. All of the old blacksmithing text books and most of the new ones cover proper radiuses for anvils. This is also covered in chapter one of most modern high tech closed die forging texts. You can read between the lines of the general guidelines and figure out what radius works for the size of work you do and the size of shoulder you put into you work pieces. As to one or both sides I find that in architectural metalwork there are a lot of double shoulders in the same piece so it is more efficient to have the same radius on both sides of the anvil. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JHCC Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 51 minutes ago, Judson Yaggy said: Are we not supposed to post links to Youtube anymore? I see the link 2 posts up has been removed. I hope not; I'd hate for all the work we put on the "Collection of Blacksmithing Links" page to go to waste. Plus, I'm not sure I'd be able to find all that stuff again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Leigh Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 Very much a catch 22 here. I wont know what radii to put on the anvil until I start working and get experienced, but I could go through bad experiences using the wrong radii. Did more research this afternoon, and yes there is no single answer apparently, totally dependent on the work at hand. As it is a post anvil I can reverse the anvil as it effectively has two primary striking surfaces, call them "A" and "B". I was thinking of having either the same radius on "A" and the a different radius on "B". Or I could have two different radii on opposite sides of the same striking surface, effectively giving me 4 different radii on the anvil. I need to start somewhere so anyone care to give a stab on the radii. Lets assume that I will forge blades for hunting knives and will make tongs for blacksmithing as well as implements for the BBQ like tongs, forks, kebab skewers perhaps some light work like light chandeliers for my fire pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judson Yaggy Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 1/8"r to 1/4"r for that size work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 4 hours ago, Judson Yaggy said: Are we not supposed to post links to Youtube anymore? I see the link 2 posts up has been removed. JHCC I have no problem sending folks to information that they can use, if the information is good information. Your efforts to find good, well presented information is why the "Collection of Blacksmithing Links" page was created. The objection comes if the video is advertising, or trying to sell their a product. New Edge of the Anvil by Jack Anderson has the following: The edges of a new anvil are usually sharp and should be dressed, which is grinding the edge to the proper radius. From the shoulder to the mid point, develop the edge to a 3/8 inch radius. Blend this radius into a 1/4 inch radius from the mid point to the heel. The edge of the heel can either be sharp or rounded. Some anvils have never had their edges dressed in this manner; as a result, they are easily chopped. Usually new anvils have to be dressed out. Another suggestion: I use a fairly large radius on the far side, near the horn. Several inches are radiused at about 3/16" radius, or 3/8" diameter. The radius then gets tighter toward the heel. The front edge is a bit smaller; perhaps 1/8" radius tapering to 1/16" at the heel. This can be used for your block anvil. You have 2 faces its 8 edges, lots of options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Leigh Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 Apologies for the protocol breach on the You Tube Link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 Not a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Leigh Posted March 19, 2017 Author Share Posted March 19, 2017 OK thanks all. Just finished modifying the drawing for the engineers tomorrow. Striking Face "A" - 3/8" on opposing faces and 1/4" on one of the opposing faces and 1/8" on the other the slightly heavier work. Striking Face "B" - 1/4" on opposing faces and 1/8" one of the opposing faces and 1/16" on the other the light work. The vertical edges will all be 5/64", may appear odd but 2.00mm in metric. Here goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crytin Posted March 20, 2017 Share Posted March 20, 2017 Scrambler. If he cuts a hardie hole and into his block, he is decreasing his work space. Putting a radius on the edges will not really affect his work area and will allow him to us the edge of the anvil for offsets and other things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Leigh Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 On the top face I have 4 radii. 6 / 4 / 3 / 2mm and on the bottom face 6 and 3mm on opposing faces. The vertical sides have no radius. The question is, if I was to place a hardy hole, as depicted by the red addition would this compromise the integrity of the other two faces. Hole is 25 x 25mm. Anvil Basic 21 03 2107.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles R. Stevens Posted March 21, 2017 Share Posted March 21, 2017 So those whe came before us used a tool very much like what we call a rivet header, that is a thick bar with a series of graduated holes punched in it, and one end forged down to make a confortable handle. So you used tie bolster to back up our punch and kept it from mushrooming against the anvil. Larger holes were simple bars bent into a ring or U. Most bottom tools whe acualy handled to tops held by an apprentice. Now for us, not great because we work alone, a peice of 1/2 plate 3-4" square is relitively easy to make a square hole in, and weld to a corasponding drop of heavy wall tubing, walla portable hardy hole, sleeper plates from the rail way have 7/8" holes, and can de bolted to a stump to provide the same, if you don't have a see to a drill press, one can use a peice of heavy wall square tubing with the right inside mesuments, te next size up tubing can be welded on to make a coller. This is best in exes in a stump, but some have welded them to the side of their "anvils" look at an armorers bench, it may have several workstations, anvil on one end, mabe a bolster plate on the other. Some times you see a block anvil with a chisel wedged into the stump as a hot cut and a heavy round bar bent over and stuck into a hole in the stump as a horn. (I like L shaped bicks with a round taper on one leg and square taper on the other) depending wich end is up, you have a square or round bick (no welder needed, just a forge, anvil, hammer and file... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Leigh Posted March 21, 2017 Author Share Posted March 21, 2017 Thanks to all who contributed. The Hardy hole goes, I will make an alternate plan if and when the time arises. Steel going to the engineers shop tomorrow, no turning back now. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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