Help on deciphering burner flame

[clenceo]

Good evening everyone!!

I came to a point now where I'd like to refine my forge. Soft bricks started cracking and seems like a good time to build an smaller forge to suit my needs. 

My first burner that I put together is a Ron Reil design. I used a #57 orifice for the jet. I like how it came out and believe the flame is desirable. However, I was never able to reproduce another burner build. Holes drilled always came out crooked. 

I then came across the Mikey Burner. Its sleek and looks like I can reproduce it quickly and easily. 

As you can see in the pictures, the flames are different. Well to me they are. I'm not running a regulator, just a needle valve. 

Are the flames from either acceptable? Or any thing I can do to improve on the build achieve a more efficient burn. 

My new forge will be a single burner and would love to attempt to forge weld.

 

[Michael Cochran]

Why are you not using a regulator? 

[clenceo]

14 hours ago, Michael Cochran said:

Why are you not using a regulator? 

I currently do not have one. Will be obtaining a regulator soon

 

[Buzzkill]

The second pic looks pretty good to me, but since it's not in your forge it may behave differently in that environment due to back pressure.

There's nothing wrong with using a needle valve to control the propane flow, but a regulator is better.  A regulator really is just a valve that uses a spring, a diaphragm, and gas pressure to open or close some as needed to keep the outlet pressure constant.  With only the needle valve, as the tank cools and/or gets close to being empty you may have to open it more to stay at the same heat in the forge.  Of course if you have a regulator with a pressure gauge then you can also note the pressure setting that gave you the desired results and easily repeat that setting the next time.  With only a needle valve or a regulator with no gauge it's a bit more trial and error each time.

[Mikey98118]

That is NOT a Mikey burner; it doesn't seem to be a bad burner though. Are the colors in the photo the same as what your eyes see?

Please explain what and how you used and how you constructed the gas jet, including dimensions, becuase I suspect that is what requires tweaking.

Mikey

[clenceo]

Hmm...not a Mikey burner? I guess it's a knock off? I have limited tools, so I try to simplify and use what I have. Today, I opened up the sides of the pipe. Still need to clean it up to make it pretty and functional. Stacked some bricks, lit the temporary forge and let it run for about 5 minutes or so. I threw in a railroad spike just to see how long it would take to get it to glow. At 6 minutes, I took out the spike and set it on the anvil. Here are some pics of my build. I am using a .025 mig tip. 

 

My apologies...I tried uploading more pictures, but I kept getting a failure to upload message..

The burner tube is 3/4x8in black pipe. 

[Mikey98118]

That is still not a Mikey burner, but I can see the flame improving steadily. Two things you can do with very little added effort is to bring the end of the MIG tip down nearly to a point; just spin it in your 1/4" jand drill under a file. Next, file the forward edge of each air opening into an internal bevel (knife edge on the outside surface).

 

[Frosty]

Mike: I've never messed with a burner like this, are those good ratios? 3/4" x 8" running a 0.025 jet?

I'm not criticizing I'm not familiar with the type but I am curious.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

I like a "nine times" rule of thumb; that means time times the actual inside diameter of the mixing tube, which for 3/4" schedule 40 water pipe is about 7/8"; equaling 8" from the forward end of a burner's air opening, or where a funnel shape joins the mixing tube,  to the forward end of the mixing tube. Its called a rule of thumb for very good reason; how fast the gas/air mixture flow travels effects how much length is needed in the mixing tube. Presently, a Vortex burner needs fourteen times the mixing tube's I.D.; not for adequate mixing of the gas and air, but to slow down enough for good flame shape before exiting the the flame nozzle.

The gas orifice size should be very close to right for the mixing tube inside diameter. Do we have a list available on IFI or do I need to post one? anyway, it would be between .031" to .038" if you are choosing between MIG tips (which means it would be a 023 or 030 tip (one a bit small and the other a bit large). If you are using a capillary tube source, like hypodermic needles, the orifice would be around .034". These are as close so ideal figures as I can get. BUT, when it comes to burners, circumstances certainly do alter cases. I should expect that on this burner , a MIG tip for 023 wire would be needed to offset less air  induction.

[Frosty]

Oh MAN, you're going to make me mic. water pipe aren't you? Oh well, I'd rather know than think I'm right and I DO have the tools. Heck, I THINK I even have gauges to measure mig tip IDs with. I've been reading your posts too long now, I was happy as a shade tree, rule of thumb guy and now you're bringing out the reflex precision machinist in me.

Ahch, to quote Mr. Spock to Bones, "Constant exposure will result in a certain degree of contamination."

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Frosty,

It is better to just look the part up on a pipe chart, because pipes vary from one part of the pipe to another; those charts will get you closer to actual overall size than a micrometer ever will.

[Mikey98118]

You can figure out actual MIG tip I.D. for most of the desired orifice sizes using torch tip cleaners as go/no go gauges, and even figure out how much they are being enlarged pretty well  because the size of the smooth front portions of their round files are listed on the back of the metal case they tangle from. 

[Frosty]

12 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Frosty,

It is better to just look the part up on a pipe chart, because pipes vary from one part of the pipe to another; those charts will get you closer to actual overall size than a micrometer ever will.

My bad, I used a slang term we used in Dad's shop when sloppy language was okay. I should've used the proper term but this is a good example of how poor jargon can cause confusion. I should've said I'd have to gauge it to be sure. Dad loaded me up with a lot of his instruments, Lots of Starret. I have his inside calipers, the deepest about 10" with a minimum of 1/2" closed. These are just calipers and you have to use a vernier caliper or micrometer to read a close dimension. For most cases a scale is more than accurate enough. Anyway I know I can measure to much tighter tolerances than the charts. Regardless the manufacturer charts are more than close enough for our purposes making burners.

Heck, if you've ever chucked plumbing pipe up in a lathe you'd know its not even terribly round, some is out by a good 1/32". Sometimes the inconsistencies don't match inside to outside. Boring the burner tube smooth didn't make a significant difference so I didn't waste more time boring pipe. so yeah, I've measured 3/4" pipe and most isn't 3/4" but some is and sometimes it depends on how you hold the gauge. It's funky stuff.

I THINK there are a couple indexes of his wire gauges (wire feelers?) in the Kennedy top box, I know I have about half a dozen of his feeler gauges.

Darn, I may be in serious danger of coming out of the shade here.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

 

Well, I for one would morn any such change. The practical side of you has been very good for me to watch, and I don't think your latest burner came from time spent with a micrometer. Of course we all want to use what we learned over the years, but that practical side was probably mentored in your dad's machine shop too.

I spent a year in college learning to machine, but it only took me thirty days on the job to realize what a dead end it can be as a pursuit. So, about the only tool machine tool I recommend for building some of my burners is a cheap digital caliper; and that only as the easiest way to do some tasks; never as the only way.

[clenceo]

I'M BACK!!

I got around to firing up my new little forge that I made from a freon tank. Using the burner (as mentioned above in my past post) I fired her up. I noticed an orange tinge to the flame. I attribute it to the angle of the burner. Maybe the flame is deflecting?? 

Anyway, I through in a railroad spike. After 7 minutes or so, that thing was glowing & the flame was barely visible...hmmm. I set the spike on my anvil & admired it.

I allowed the forge to cool and after adjusting the burner angle, I fired her up again. I was quite happy, but would love more opinions. Second picture after is about 3 minutes in, and lastly...I think its about 8 minutes in.

A regulator is on order...BTW

Thanks you for looking!!

[Mikey98118]

Of the three last photos showing flame, I saw two perfect flames, and one reducing flame (the one with a green tinge in it). Those photos and the the pictures showing a white spike tells me it's time to move on beyond improving the burner; congratulations.

[Mars]

What's the forge made out of?

[Frosty]

You have the burner dialed in nicely. It's still aimed perpendicular to the far side of the forge firing into a pocket. If you orient the burner more vertically or more horizontally so the flame impinges to one side or the other of the "pocket" the interior will heat more evenly.

Still, it'll work just fine as it is, I'd put it to work and think of improvements for the next forge as time goes by. It'll take time and use to learn what you need from a forge, we all did.

Don't worry Mike I got into blacksmithing to get away from the ridiculous precision of Dad's shop. Oh I worked in his shop and did pretty well for myself as a spinner learned to run a lathe fairly well and could figure out a mill but it's not my thing. I prefer turning steel into putty and mashing it to my liking using the mark one eyeball instruments. I may get out the Starrets but I'm more likely to set up a spinning lathe.

Unfortunately these thoughts are much more iffy than before.

Frosty The Lucky.

[clenceo]

Thank you all for your input on my forge build. I get caught up focusing on design, and forget about having fun. Although building this forge was fun and challenging! I will be definitely be taking what I learned & apply to a new forge. Now that it's complete and portable, I'm having loads of fun....can't stop thinking about banging some hot steel. 

As for construction, here in California we have smog stations everywhere. I went around and asked for what I believe is a Carbon Dioxide cylinder (its a yellow cylinder) Its roughly the size, maybe slightly bigger than a R134a freon tank. I lined the inside with 2" of Kaowool, and added a layer of refractory mortar. 

I will be adding a coat of ITC100 in the future. The forge heats up nicely and I get to play around with my new regulator. Since then, I've finished my first project in this forge...I'm still new, but I love it!

[clenceo]

Hello again...I'd like to add some issues/solutions that I'm having with my forge. Hopefully video will give you and idea what I'm talking about. I was running my forge at around 5 psi, after about 20 min or so, it started making a sputtering sound. I'm not sure if I'm creating too much back pressure, if its sucking in heat and starving itself, or too low of pressure. My question is...do burner/forge have a "personality"

After some tinkering, I bumped up the pressure and went at it for another 20 min or so. I got too tired and shut down for the day. 

20161128_163410.mp4

20161128_164107.mp4

[Buzzkill]

The sputtering/whistling sound in the first video is typical when the flame is burning inside the burner tube rather than at the end of it.

Burner/forge combinations do have a "personality" in the sense that we are not usually making either one of them with enough degree of accuracy to give exactly the same results repeatedly.  In addition to that, things like elevation, barometric pressure, ambient temperature, and even relative humidity can have a small impact on how the burner performs from one day to the next.

Frosty or Mikey can explain about flame fronts and that sort of thing, but if your burner is tuned right and performing well for a period of time and then you get the results in your first video then you are probably operating close to the bottom of the functional range of your burner in that forge.  If you are using a small (BBQ size) propane tank or if your tank is nearly empty there may be a small decrease in pressure as the tank cools which could be enough to take you below the functional threshold for your setup.  Bumping the pressure up just a little usually solves that problem for me anyway.   If a cold tank is your problem, then an easy way to avoid that is a shallow water bath to set your tank in.  You just need enough water to make good contact with the bottom of the tank.  It's best to avoid a deep bath so that the tank doesn't begin to float and then tip over as it gets close to being empty.  Another solution is to link 2 tanks together.

 

[clenceo]

Ah yes! Cold tank..thank you! I didn't think about that. Im in California @ sea level. Today 54 deg. F with a light breeze (68% humidity) 

After I bumped up the pressure a bit, it seemed ok. I'll try again tomorrow with some water surrounding the propane tank.

Thanks again!

[Mikey98118]

On 11/28/2016 at 6:17 PM, clenceo said:

 

Any burner will have a minimum stable gas pressure; even when burning out in the open air. The minimum gas pressure only raises inside a forge. Every burner, and every forge definitely has a "personality": even assembly line products have them to some extent; this is all the more true of hand crafted equipment.