saintjohnbarleycorn Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 is it better to make one of these with higher carbon, as in it i will ring nicer? I have the choice of mild and the hay rake teeth (.95) or so . thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
larrynjr Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 That's a good question. I've always assumed that mild steel would be the way to go. Hate to waste good tool steel on such an unassuming item but I could be very wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blubrick Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 SJB, We made one out of 10mm(3/8") square mild at a smithing course I did and it rings just beautifully. Come to think of it, most "real" bells seem to be made of bronze or brass, which are both pretty soft. I think you'd be better off saving the high carbon stuff for projects that require an edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I almost always use better steel for triangles. It is scrap from farm machinery so affordable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keykeeper Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I wouldn't think the carbon content would have anything to do with resonance and tone, but I could be wrong. The most important thing to remember with a dinner bell would be that once formed, that the bell is not closed. Make sure to leave the corner open where the bell comes together in the final angle, and the sound will resonate longer and with deeper tone. Also, seems like the larger the stock used, the lower the tone. Small stuff like 1/4" makes a pretty high pitch when struck. 1/2" makes a better, deeper tone IMHO. just my .02 worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Martin Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 In the "Backyard Blacksmith" book. She uses mild steel and it rings fine. Pretty sure that carbon content doesn't make any difference. Possible the size and diameter of the stock does though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stretch Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 When I used to make them I used truck coil springs. Heat them up and unroll them. !/2 ton truck uses about 9/16 size springs and 3/4 ton uses about 3/4 inch. Lots of them and makes good dinner triangles. At junk yards there are usually all you need and quite cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten Hammers Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 1/2 hotrolled round. All day long. Every day. Hang from baler twine. Heat and quench the corners. Clanger from same material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McPherson Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 The characteristic ring comes from the crystal structure of the metals. Don't believe me? Compare two identical pieces of steel, one annealed and one quenched. Really low carbon steel like 1008 or 1018 needs to have the corners quenched in Gunter's SuperQuench to give a loud ring. Cowbells have to be immersed if made of mild steel. Higher carbon/higher alloy steels like springs and hay rake teeth usually do fine without a quench, and may shatter in SQ. The way you suspend the bell matters too. Some folks pinch out the top corner and punch a small hole to pass a wire thru, others just use a wire or leather thong with an open loop, or pass the rod thru a washer before scrolling the ends. Anything that absorbs the vibrations dampens the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Funk Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 The pitch of a triangle is a function of the weight of the bar (the heavier the lower pitch) , the length of the bar The longer the bar the lower the pitch up to a point) and the stiffness of the bar (the stiffer the bar the higher the pitch). The stiffness for steel is constant reguardless carbon content. The weight of the bar is dependendent of diameter. And of course length of tha bar is dependent on the size of the triangle. Thus to make a higher pitch make the diameter smaller and /or the traingle smaller. To make the pitch lower make the diameter larger and/ or the triangle larger. It does seem to me, based on observation, that higher carbon, heat treated steel rings louder and clearer than low carbon annealed steel. But my observations may be wrong. I am not aware of any engineering explanation for this but I sure there is if my observations are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 Thanks, as usual a lot to learn about things. I would guess that the crystal structure of the steel would have something to do with it. There is also "Bell brass" they use in banjo's so there must be different types of brass. I may do some experimenting on this one, but as time is an issue here, (birthday present) I have some 1/2" square that I will use. The diameter of the hay rake is 3/8" or less. Don't have a lot of spring material, but I am curious about this. thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 Well I made one and it doesn't sound so good. I made it about 20" on the three sides. I am thinking that the length will also affect the sound. A certain length will probably resonate more with 1/2" square. Like 18" will will resonate more than 20" or visa versa. What are the dimensions of the one that were made with 1/2" square? thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easilyconfused Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 How are you hanging it? That can be a major problem with dampening the sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldeScouter Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 I've made basic ones from 1/2in rebar, and decorative ones from 1/2in sq H.R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 I am hanging from string. I don't know if it was HR or CR steel its been around for 10 ro 15 years I guess, and I am not sure how to tell which is which. If you think about it though, a violin string is a certian length and diameter to get the best sound. Now in this application it might not make that much of a difference. I think I am going to put it in a fire and quench the whole thing, I did that with just the corners. The Hanger I made for it resonates better than the triangle. Its basically a right angle, but I twisted half of it so it probably hardended some from that, but not sure. well I am going to work on some more ideas and see what works the best. I will let you know what I find out in time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steponmebbbboom Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 from answers dot com, bell: Definition and Much More from Answers.com scroll down to the howitsmade bit. most musical instruments these days are constructed of non ferrous metals to avoid corrosion, but i really dont think that is your issue here. some metals and alloys are marginally better than others but the key is to find a resonant frequency that has a pleasant tone. with the standard smithed dinner bell, its more trial and error than anything, but i think youll find after playing with lengths and thicknesses of the legs, youll find some combination that rings true. yes keep the legs apart, hang with a wire or something that wont absorb vibration but try varying the length and thicknesses of the legs and try to keep them as equal as possible. good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Covington Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 It also makes a difference which corner you tie the string. One of our guys makes a lot of bells, he demonstraited the difference from corner to corner. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 thanks, sounds like I am going to learn something over time here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mills Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 I usually make mine with about an 1-2 inch difference between sides. 12,14,13 for example. What has made the most difference for me is to not use a large size of cord or leather nor should you tie it in a knot up tight to the corner. Next is to play with the gap between the ends if they get too close it can dampen things a bit. I have not seen any difference in quenching the corners in the past but I believe I will try that again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 thanks. I decided to heat the whole thing and quench in water, built a fire outside and did it. It did improve the sound quite a bit. Thats not say it would for every one but on this one it did. It resonates a lot more and has a higher and louder sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintjohnbarleycorn Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 It also makes a difference which corner you tie the string. One of our guys makes a lot of bells, he demonstraited the difference from corner to corner. Travis I am interested in the bell thing. Would your friend have an interest in sharing some information>? thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimag Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 I've made mine out of 1/2, 5/8 and 3/4 round and square mostly mild steel but some out of truck coil springs.I'm not a precise kind of guy so my straight lengths are not likely to be even.I have made them with the gap in the corner and with the gap in the middle of the bottom part of the triangle.All of the mild steel ones I heated the corners up to critical and quenched.They ring well.I have in the past found that the best ones [for ring] were the ones I heated up to critical and winged out the door into a 2' snowdrift with the ambient temp being around -20C.Those ones rang like church bells.Not sure if there is a scientific reason for that or not.Worked for me.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Travis Covington Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 He doesn't do much on the computer, but maybe I can talk him into a write up for our newsletter. Travis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmith Jim Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 There once was a great write up that I read online. It had to do with the length and thickness of metal and the note or tone that it would produce when struck. I wish I had book marked it. It told how to lay out the length to get a specific note..... hmm... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted January 30, 2008 Share Posted January 30, 2008 heated up to critical and winged out the door into a 2' snowdrift with the ambient temp being around -20C. The air quench I understand and can do here. I am not sure I want the to get the second part right. At least not enough to wish for -20C and a 2 foot snowdrift. (GRIN) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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