Burners 101

[John in Oly, WA]

AnotherCurtis, you've got it. The white plastic cylinder is just six vanes distributed around the inside of a cylinder. The vanes each span 120 degrees of the 360 of the cylinder. Fourth video a very short cylinder. Fifth video the same cylinder stretched.

I'll post a pic of the white plastic piece.

Frosty, the third video is the squirrel cage fan blowing into a spiral tunnel shaped piece of plastic. It has what I think is the best flame. But I think it falls into the category of blown burner. Not that that matters necessarily. Certainly a lot of tuning and tweaking could be done to arrive at a better flame.

[John in Oly, WA]

A pic of the CAD drawing of the white plastic cylinder (vortex generator).

 

[Mikey98118]

21 hours ago, Frosty said:

Mike first. Is your vortex burner: Naturally Aspirated, a Gun or some sort of combination?

John: I'm not wading through all your videos, I took your suggestion and looked at #4&5 but there's nothing to see of the construction, just a round plastic thing blocked view and a shot of an okay flame.

Ted: Without knowing if we're talking NA or Gun burner I don't know if a Squirrel cage or impeller fan blower actually makes a significant difference. 

These are combination burners.

Technically, they are part time gun burner; they just aren't fan blown burners, because the fan has impeller blades which creates a powered vortex--not a breeze.

These are naturally aspirated burners, even when the fan is running; but they also run like regular linear burners when the fan is off. These are combination induced and powered burners. Finally, these burners create some vortex from air running over the fan blades, even when they are still.

Because the fans take so little current, the burners can be run for hours from highly portable miniature batteries, so while the equipment is electrically powered, that does not stop it from being quite portable.

21 hours ago, Frosty said:

Ted: Without knowing if we're talking NA or Gun burner I don't know if a Squirrel cage or impeller fan blower actually makes a significant difference. 

It makes all the difference.

For instance, a gas tube and MIG tip could be run down the center of Ted's plastic vortex generator to significantly improved the performance of a linear burner, if said generator was placed on the entrance of a pipe reducer, etc.

[Mikey98118]

16 hours ago, AnotherCurtis said:

Frosty:  Back on page 40, John in Oly,WA posted a image which demonstrates the concept of the vortex burner.  It is a linear burner with an impeller axial fan at the air inlet reducer.  The purpose of the fan being to increase vortex down the mix tube more so then to provide air force.  Mikey said they can be run without power to the fan as just the vanes are enough to promote swirl of the induced air but the main purpose is to run the fan to increase the output capabilities of the burner based on the vortex.  In John's number 4 and 5 videos, the burners are skipping the fan all together and the white plastic things are just vane devices to cause the induction air to swirl.

Completely correct.

[RichG]

Hey guys, another newbie here. I just heat cured my forge. Dimensions are 226 cubic inches. Shell is a helium tank, 2 inches of kaowool, 1/4 inch Satanite. Burner is a 3/4 inch T burner built to Frosty’s instructions. Running s 30 PSI regulator. Burner collar/holder is 11/4 inch. It lights and fires fine but here’s my concern. I noticed a “dragons breath” emitting Faron the forge following the burner tube up and out of the holding collar which is set 2” off TDC. Obviously this is not a good thing for many reasons not to mention the wife being mad if I blow our workshop up. Any help is appreciated. 

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I would pack the area between the burner and tube with rididized kaowool. A picture of the forge with the burner mounted would help. What size is the exhaust port at the back of the forge? Do you still have to light it at the orifice or will it light at the flare when in the forge?

[RichG]

16 minutes ago, Irondragon Forge & Clay said:

I would pack the area between the burner and tube with rididized kaowool. A picture of the forge with the burner mounted would help. What size is the exhaust port at the back of the forge? Do you still have to light it at the orifice or will it light at the flare when in the forge?

It lights at the output end of the burner. The rear exhaust port is 2”X 5”. 

This was before applying the Satanite. 

[Mikey98118]

That is an oversized burner for a two-gallon cylinder size; is that what you have? This doesn't necessarily mean the burner can't be turned down enough to work okay in the forge; it just means that your turn-down range is shortened. In other words you have less leeway in your adjustments to work with. Under the circumstances you definitely need to seal the burner port's opening with ceramic wool. If that doesn't end your problem, switch the burner out for a 1/2" size that you can turn up higher.

[RichG]

9 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

That is an oversized burner for a two-gallon cylinder size; is that what you have? This doesn't necessarily mean the burner can't be turned down enough to work okay in the forge; it just means that your turn-down range is shortened. In other words you have less leeway in your adjustments to work with. Under the circumstances you definitely need to seal the burner port's opening with ceramic wool. If that doesn't end your problem, switch the burner out for a 1/2" size that you can turn up higher.

Thanks Mike. I think I’ll build a 1/2 burner. Based on info here I know the mixing tube should be 4 inches and I’m assuming a 3/4 to 1/2 reducing tee.  What mig tip size would you recommend?

[Buzzkill]

I've used .023 mig tips with success in half inch Frosty T burners.

[RichG]

Thanks  Buzzkill

[Frosty]

0.023 mig contact tips work well in 1/2" Ts as do 3/4" x 1/2" Ts.

Frosty The Lucky.

[RichG]

1 hour ago, Frosty said:

0.023 mig contact tips work well in 1/2" Ts as do 3/4" x 1/2" Ts.

Frosty The Lucky.

Thanks Frosty. Do you think the 3/4 T burner is too big for 226 cubic inches? I fiddled with shortening the .035 and adjusting the depth of the burner inside the forge this afternoon. Fired it and ran it at 10 PSI for about 10 minutes and it seemed fine, no flame creeping out of the burner holder. I did pick up parts for the 1/2 inch just in case. 

 

 

 

[Mikey98118]

On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 4:28 PM, RichG said:

Thanks Frosty. Do you think the 3/4 T burner is too big for 226 cubic inches? I fiddled with shortening the .035 and adjusting the depth of the burner inside the forge this afternoon. Fired it and ran it at 10 PSI for about 10 minutes and it seemed fine, no flame creeping out of the burner holder. I did pick up parts for the 1/2 inch just in case. 

The reason I suggested a smaller "T" burner in this size forge was because of the problem you're having; not that the burner cannot be turned down, but because "T" burners are famous for having soft flames (relatively speaking). Overall, soft flames are an advantage in a forge. But a soft flame is likely to have a shorter turn-down range. With the problem you mentioned the larger the turndown range the better. This doesn't mean a smaller burner is the ONLY answer to your problem; it just help you work out an answer. I'm a big fan of wiggle room.

[RichG]

Oh I understood you Mike. I did adjust a few things and it seems to have worked. Going to run it a little more this weekend and see how it goes. I did pick up the materials and will most likely build the 1/2 burner and test it as well. That way I can see which is going to be the best and safest application. 

[Mikey98118]

Excellent, and I hope you post your results too. I,for one, would like to hear a LOT more written and photographed on the smaller "T" burners.

[RichG]

55 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

Excellent, and I hope you post your results too. I,for one, would like to hear a LOT more written and photographed on the smaller "T" burners.

Will do. Started building the 1/2 and realized one of the fittings was packaged wrong. After throwing stuff while the wife laughed at me, I fired the 3/4 inch and threw an old blade from my zero turn in it. Heated to non-magnetic in around 4-5 minutes or so running at 8 PSI. Still wanna experiment with the 1/2 though. 

[Mikey98118]

I'm a big fan of "T" burners because they run so very differently than mine. "Wiggle room" requires a variety of burners to get the best from a variety of forges; ditto for fan-blown single or multiple flame burners, and NARBs.

[Mikey98118]

So which burner do I think is best? The one you're interested enough in to build it carefully is the best burner for you.

[RichG]

26 minutes ago, Mikey98118 said:

I'm a big fan of "T" burners because they run so very differently than mine. "Wiggle room" requires a variety of burners to get the best from a variety of forges; ditto for fan-blown single or multiple flame burners, and NARBs.

Yeah I really like the T for the simplicity of the build. Just starting out I’m going to initially do stock removal for simple blades and work up from there. Wanna be able to heat treat,etc. I’m sure I’ll start dabbling in moving steel sooner than later. Never been the patient type. Makes me wonder how I spent half my life as a cop and stayed married 32 years. LOL 

[Mikey98118]

I was lucky; when I thought about becoming a cop, my favorite cousin (a cop) clued me in to what a drag it is to spend you life dealing with petty criminals. So I went to work in the shipyards and ended up doing it anyway  

[Frosty]

You'll do fine Rich, you know how to tweak things and these all need a little tweaking. 

If your main goal is heat treating then you want more small burners to even out the temperature in the forge chamber. Aligning them on a tangential angle to form a vortex is also desirable. 

There are much more efficient and easily adjustable burners than the T but I don't think there is an easier one to build. Easy effective was my goal. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[RichG]

Okay so here’s some pics of the 1/2. T is 3/4 reducing to 1/2. Mixing tube is 4”. Tip is .023 trimmed back 1/8”. 

It’ll fire at 3PSI and turn up to 30 PSI without spitting, sputtering or puking  gets really hot and actually heats the chamber better than the 3/4  flame has a bit of a green tint so looking for advice. Thanks

 

[Mikey98118]

I try not to comment on "T" burner much; they are Frost's business. But I would have to say that your forge is running just fine.

[RichG]

Thanks Mike and thanks much for suggesting the 1/2”. I’m very satisfied with its performance. Still a little tweaking to do and figure out the best way to reduce the front and rear as needed, as well as a floor to raise the work piece a bit. Other than that I’m pleased with how the first attempt turned out.