Burners 101

[Troylet101]

8 hours ago, Mikey98118 said:

Actually the thread is 1/4-27; they only work in threaded holes from standard 1/4-28 taps because the MIG tips are soft copper and the two threads are close enough that the soft thread can change to match up well enough to avoid cross threading. However, you can buy 1/4-27 taps as cheaply as the standard 14-28 ones all day long these days.

Thanks Mikey98118!!!

I appreciate the info and I don't doubt a word of it.... now... what specific brand and model mig tip TRULY come in that size??? I'm going to the welding store today, and if need be, I am jumping the counter and testing every mig tip in the joint until I find one that fits!!! Assuming I'm successful (correction: make that "on the off chance" I'm successful... 4th largest city in the nation... why would we have a large selection???) I will report back my findings!!! If unsuccessful, I will still report back my findings.... upon my release!!! Seems the one thing that can always be found here are iron bars!!! One way or the other, I'm tipping the maid and checking outta "Frustration Station"... TODAY!!!!  In all seriousness, thanks again Mikey98118... I appreciate your time and help!!!

Troylet 

[Troylet101]

Okay!!!... apparently Tweco RZ14 carry a 1/4 x 28 thread!!! Now... do they REALLY!!! Off to the welding supply house to test the veracity of the info provided by the guy behind the counter!!! Man, I hope he's right!!!

 

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Troy, glad to have you. If you'll put your general location in the header you might discover why you can't find SAE in Outer Mongolia.

Tweco may have gone metric since I bought tips, a bag of 10 is way less per tip than individually. 

You're using 1/8" scd 80 pipe right? If not do you have a oxy acet torch? braze a plug, drill and tap. An option some guys figured out was to thread the mig tip's shaft.

I didn't know THAT Mike, the taps I've been getting from Aire Liquide are 1/4"x27!   ARGH!!! You've probably mentioned that before and I tend to skim subjects I'm too familiar with. Learned something new already today. . . Cool.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

7 hours ago, Troylet101 said:

now... what specific brand and model mig tip TRULY come in that size???

Okay, this is a perfect example of why choosing parts and tools are the toughest task most people face when building burners and forges.

So why all the complications in just choosing a MIG contact tip, and finding out what its thread is? Because both their manufactures and their distributors try to control their market base with obfuscation these days. In past decades these same people did their best to expend the markets for their products buy providing that same information; that was then, this is know.

What changed? The marketplace did. Manufacturers now produce MIG tips for their own MIG guns and each other's guns. Those manufacturers also have imported tips from foreign firms doing the same tricks with their guns and our guns.

The reason for this round about answer is that one of those manufacturers (Tweeko), made 1/4-27 threads for 1/4" size MIG tips ubiquitous, and so other manufacturers, such as Lincoln and Bernard started using it for some of their guns. Another big manufacture (MK) used a completely different tip thread, and so other manufacturers copied their thread too. Foreign manufacturers use millimeter based sizes. And yes, their products are imitated too.

When you try to order MIG tips from a welding supply store, the salesman isn't likely to know these other threads, and has no interest in taking any bother at all in placing an order (yours) that likely doesn't even pay for the paperwork.

What to do? Until you know more than the salesman, you need to know the part number on the tip your desire to buy, and then order a few of them online. Amazon.com carries as large a variety of tips as a typical welding supply store.

I've been at this game a very long time. Nevertheless, I often have to resort to a thread gauge to give me a clue of what a new product has for thread, and then order two or three different tips, then consult a thread chart, and finally buy one to two dies to find a match; why? Because some manufacturers even goes so far as to change the thread every few years!

However, Tweeko brand's 1/4" (tip diameter size) series of tapered MIG contact tips use 1/4-27 thread. So, now see another example of why it is important to follow the burner designer's instructions, EXACTLY.

[Mikey98118]

3 hours ago, Frosty said:

I didn't know THAT Mike, the taps I've been getting from Aire Liquide are 1/4"x27!   ARGH!!! You've probably mentioned that before and I tend to skim subjects I'm too familiar with. Learned something new already today. . . Cool.

It comes up now and then; There was a big flap about it on IFI three or four years back. I went into the difference back then, because I was forced to defend my choice of the standard 1/4-28 thread in my book, because over the years 1/4-27" taps and dies became easy  to find. The problem is that newbies don't want  to be put asleep by a flood of details, but sometimes there is no other way to drive the point home. 

[Troylet101]

Tweco Series 14 tips are threaded in 1/4 28 as stated in their product literature via "Airgas" (Air Liquide). Also Lincoln KP 14-35 are threaded in 1/4 28. (Amazon $7.30 ten pack... no thread info on site) As far as the different size tips go, I've seen the catalog at "Airgas" list .030 .035 and .045 as having these threads. How many sizes beyond that??? Can't say. ALL sizes in the model series as a generality??? Don't know. I have ONLY tested the KP 14-35 as that's what I purchased, however, the literature on these was correct and I would imagine it would be for the other sizes as well. That said, several other sizes in this series had NO THREAD INFO, and as Mikey98114 stated, getting ancillary info from a sales person can be difficult. As far as product details go, "I'm a roast, baste me" (Dennis Miller - "Joe Dirt") however, give me some details!!! Manufacturers produce the tips in a myriad of different configurations with no set standards... REGARDLESS of manufacturer!!! I agree.... know what's what, down to the model number!!!..... and once you do, share... share... share!!! At least until next week when they change the product line again!!!!! I did assume that I'd be able to wing it as I've always done, however, most of the burner designs I've seen utilize parts that have NO SUBSTITUTE without changing the design. And unless the build instructions are followed verbatim "plus", you will eventually have to throw her in reverse at some point!!! The "plus" being applicable skills, knowledge, investigation and common sense. It's just one of those types of projects!!! But enough of all that!!! I'm gonna go play with my buners!!! Thanks again Frosty and Mike!!!

Troylet 

 

 

[Mikey98118]

Let us know how that turns out for you.

[Mikey98118]

The sales literature may even be correct; if not you can still use 1/4-27 thread in a 1/4-28 threaded hole.

[Frosty]

I take a  1/4" - 28 nut with me to check if I'm not sure.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

Copper fuel lines

Frosty has been using and recommending the use of copper refrigeration tubing for years, but I reserved judgement on  it. Bottom line is that it is mostly a plus, and usually  contributes a lot to safety; all the time? Probably not, but then what is the right answer all the time?   

[Frosty]

My use of copper 1/4" tubing is under certain conditions, not all of them. I like it where the propane supply is in the high heat zone and this is typically in any vertically mounted burner. Rubber if fine so long as the burner is running but when you shut it  down forge HOT air chimneys up the burner(s) and exposes the hose. 

The secondary reason I like it is it's stiff compared to rubber hose so it can provide some support to the burners and because it's malleable it's adjustable support. It lets me orient the burners real time, I can aim the flame while it's burning.

1/4" copper pipe is also WAY cheaper than rubber propane hose, I can buy a roll, fittings and tools for what a couple hoses cost.

NO, it's not always the better way to connect your propane supply and certainly NOT from the tank/regulator but on average I like it for the final burner connection.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Mikey98118]

On ‎7‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 5:26 PM, Frosty said:

NO, it's not always the better way to connect your propane supply and certainly NOT from the tank/regulator but on average I like it for the final burner connection.

With that that single caveat, me too.

 

On ‎6‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 6:41 PM, Troylet101 said:

did assume that I'd be able to wing it as I've always done, however, most of the burner designs I've seen utilize parts that have NO SUBSTITUTE without changing the design. And unless the build instructions are followed verbatim "plus", you will eventually have to throw her in reverse at some point!!! The "plus" being applicable skills, knowledge, investigation and common sense. It's just one of those types of projects!!! But enough of all that!!! I'm gonna go play with my buners!!! Thanks again Frosty and Mike!!!

Okay, ya got me partner; after putting you to all that trouble, I will admit that as most rules have exceptions, "follow the design exactly" Has one too; you're the exception. How's this? You just went deeply enough into the subject to come up to speed with the designers  

 

[Mikey98118]

So, to sweeten the deal I will remind you that, mounting the right long tapered MIG tip on a 1/8" schedule #80 pipe (or in fact any tubing product that has an inside diameter of approximately 3/16", and is at least 3-1/2" long) will provide some extra oomph to high speed burner designs; so that when it's time to light your finished burner and tune it you have...wait for it...more than enough power to make you happy. 

[Ted Ewert]

Mikey, you commented in another thread (Info Request DIY Ribbon Burner Forge Build): "I would be very careful that the burner head matches up with the volume of the forge. I'm not talking about whether or not the burner can adequately heat the forge. I'm talking about whether the forge is big enough to adequately combust the gas."

I'm a little confused here by the concept of the forge chamber combusting the gas. It seems to me that if the burner is designed properly, and the mixture is correct, the gas should all be consumed at the burner. Given that there is a positive pressure differential between the forge chamber and the outside air, theoretically there is no external oxygen entering the chamber. Therefore, any dragons breath is the result of incomplete combustion at the exit port of the burner (I can see why this happens with crayon burners since they have no expansion chamber at the end of their ports). 

Do most people design their chambers to be able to handle the volume of this unburned fuel?

[Mikey98118]

First, I generally agree with all your comments, with one caveat; change "... if a burner is properly designed" for nearly "nearly perfect." It has taken me several years on IFI to appreciate that there is  a big difference between these two in most people's minds.

In my mind, a nearly perfect burner has no secondary flame to need to complete combustion in the forge chamber. BUT, the truth is that most people don't want the hassle of building such a burner the first time around. So, what's needed is a good enough burner to finish combustion within the forge; a much easier goal.

[Ted Ewert]

I guess you're right. Most people want quick and easy. I don't know why I'm stuck on this combustion thing except that I find it strangely fascinating.

Just got finished pouring a new ribbon burner with a slightly different nozzle configuration. I'll post pics and results in a day or so. If nothing else I'm getting good and building burners. 

[Mikey98118]

8 hours ago, Ted Ewert said:

Mikey, you commented in another thread (Info Request DIY Ribbon Burner Forge Build): "I would be very careful that the burner head matches up with the volume of the forge. I'm not talking about whether or not the burner can adequately heat the forge. I'm talking about whether the forge is big enough to adequately combust the gas."

So, to complete your answer, let's  take a quick look at the last few years progress on ribbon burners, since it was on one of those threads where your questions began. Early ribbon burners were fan-blown commercial products.

So far fan-blown ribbon burners remain the only kind that make near perfect flames. Frosty lead the way in naturally aspirated ribbon burners, and perfecting them remains a long-term goal; so far the best of them have secondary flames. And with other air-fuel burners, second best turns out to be plenty good enough.

Remember that the very best burner is only another part of your forge. Forges have "come a long way baby." It is improvements in forge design that allow good-enough burners to be so.

[Ted Ewert]

You're right about forge design. I've started to think about the aerodynamics in my forge, as well as focusing the heat in one area. Swirling is fine for heating up the whole forge, but I'd like one spot that's really hot. I have some ideas...

[Mikey98118]

Ted Ewert wrote that he would like one spot in his forge that's especially hot.

That is easily accomplished; Just aim a burner at top-dead-center and aimed straight down at the floor. Most people think that getting the whole forge hot isn't easy, unless the burner exhaust gases swirl inside the heating chamber, and that is true; but its a monumental task either. It is just in the nature of the process that exhaust gases will circulate within the combustion chamber, if given any chance too at all; it won't do so as well, but should do plenty well enough.

Nearly everyone is also anxious to see the whole forge interior heating evenly; Why? Are they cramming the chamber full of heating stock? Not likely. Both of these concerns are historic they were valid twenty years ago, when most burners had a long way to go, and when re-emissive coatings were barley available. Good-enough burners (small secondary flame) are quite able to heat up a square box forge into apparent equal incandescence. What does that mean? There will still be a minor differences in temperature range in various parts of the forge, but it will take a temperature probe to read them. In other words, there will be no practical temperature differences. Why; because a modern forge is a RADIANT OVEN.

 

[Ted Ewert]

Thank you for clearing that up. I was under the impression, from reading here and elsewhere, that having the flame directly on the work was to be avoided. Is there some difference of opinion on this subject? 

[Mikey98118]

Excellent follow on question!

Yes; when the burner is aimed directly at the center of a floor, a minimum of 2" beyond the end of the flame should be kept. therefore it is good to have the flame measured at say twenty PSI of gas pressure before deciding the height of the forge. Twenty PSI is where most people feel they are getting the most out of a burner for the fuel being used. If there is a better method of gauging the niceties, it is beyond me 

I should have stated that 20 PSI is the top of the range where most people feel they are getting the most out of there burner for the fuel being used.

[stevomiller]

Mikey,

I’ve a question concerning the air slots in your Mikeyburner design.

I noted you recommend rectangular shape with straight vs radiused ends, and odd vs even number of slots, both to increase air flow/speed and to allow some vortex vs turbulent flow. You recommend chamfering the ends of the slots as well. As a tinkere and equipment engineer these all make sense to me.

My question is have you tried also chamfering the long edges of the slots, say an internal chamfer on the left side of each slot, and external on the right sides? I’m wondering if this might induce some more swirl, but hopefully not too much (as I believe you stated this can be overdone). And/or, cut the slots at say 10* (pulled that # out of my gluteus) angle so that they formed a very gentle helix?

Thanks for letting me think out loud, even if perhaps they are just the ramblings of a mad man.

[Mikey98118]

I want to give you a thorough answer to the question you asked, along with factors you brought  up.

As to beveling the ledges along the length of the openings, I have often thought about doing so, but the practical answer is that it would be a lot of extra work to gain little added air induction; why? Because much of the air enters the opening at an angle, thus reducing the drag that square edges otherwise create. So, if you were going to bevel the edges, I would recommend doing so with no more than the forward third of their lengths.

Theoretically the smaller the diameter of the inside corners in each rectangular air opening the less additional drag it will make. Practically, the difference between rounded corners left from a 3/16" drill bit versus a square corner left from a square file is minor. But the ease of being able to deal with very small corner radiuses is large.

In the book I deliberately avoided sets of three air openings, because my burners already blew away any other design around; but they were new, and every recommendation in my book was going to haunt me for a very long time. Remember that I intended for some of those burners to be used as hand torches. But hand torches don't enjoy the added flame stability of burners  mounted in equipment do. Nineteen years have past without incident, and I am willing to admit that three is the magic number of air openings, and will produce the strongest flames in any burner size.

[Frosty]

On 7/2/2018 at 6:46 PM, Mikey98118 said:

On 6/28/2018 at 5:41 PM, Troylet101 said:

did assume that I'd be able to wing it as I've always done, however, most of the burner designs I've seen utilize parts that have NO SUBSTITUTE without changing the design. And unless the build instructions are followed verbatim "plus", you will eventually have to throw her in reverse at some point!!! The "plus" being applicable skills, knowledge, investigation and common sense. It's just one of those types of projects!!! But enough of all that!!! I'm gonna go play with my buners!!! Thanks again Frosty and Mike!!!

Okay, ya got me partner; after putting you to all that trouble, I will admit that as most rules have exceptions, "follow the design exactly" Has one too; you're the exception. How's this? You just went deeply enough into the subject to come up to speed with the designers  

I'm back, everybody can breath a sigh of relief now.  Deb and I took a road trip with her new(ish) RV and I didn't mention it here because I didn't want to announce to the local thieves we'd be gone for a few days. Soooo, I'm about a week behind. 

What Mike said Troylet. We tell people to follow the directions exactly simply because most people now days just don't have the shop skills or mechanical savy to go very far outside the lines. Heck, even guys with years of shop classes and related jobs often can't think outside the lines. There are others though who can wing it and do it well, maybe even without understanding just what's going on. It would've been good times if you were around when we were beginning to figure this stuff out. 

Ted:  You've figured out a working ribbon burner, I don't see how it's easier nor better than the method I used but that's okay, it works. Mike hasn't talked about why incomplete combustion is so common in forge burners. In part, a LITTLE residual fuel is a good thing as it prevents scaling and if you want to weld the more reducing the forge atmosphere (within reason) the better. 

Just because the chamber is under positive pressure doesn't mean there is no oxy. The flame blowing past any opening will induce ambient air into the chamber just like cracking a window on a moving vehicle.

So, assume you have a burner that produces a neutral flame. There's still flame beyond the burner, even if it's nearly invisible as are produced by Mike's burners. This is a fact of life for any propane burner. Propane is an oddball gas, it behaves like a mist rather than a gas. It doesn't "willingly" mix with air, give a chance it settles out and not just because it's denser than ambient air. It's been too many years and a head injury since this was a topic of conversation I had with Lyle, the inventor of the All State's oxy propane torch. Unlike a conversion or "universal" fuel torch the All States torch cost approx 2% what an equivalent oxy acet torch. It's incredibly more efficient and I'm sure you've heard or experienced what a conversion oxy propane torch is like. They are legendary oxy hogs, the price savings of prop over accet being the ONLY reason you see them in demo yards. 

As Lyle explained the difference is how hard it is to get propane and oxygen or air to mix thoroughly and how many years he spent developing a torch that works efficiently. The All State rig is purpose designed from the regulators to the tips. One of the big secrets Lyle passed to me was the swirl strip.

There is or was a long strip of perforated metal in the torch handle that forced the propane and oxy to swirl and pass through holes. This is the only reason the preheat flames are effective. The cutting jet is just oxy like any other cutting torch but the All States brazing / welding, heater tips are astonishingly efficient.

All that brings me to why there is going to be combustion in the furnace chamber. Unless you do something to force the two to mix. Commercially propane is often introduced before the blower so the impeller fans can spank it into behaving like a proper gas. 

Mike has developed a fan to induce a vortex in the burner's intake air to lengthen the time the two have to mix in the tube.

YOU have introduced a vortex in the fuel air mix. You want it because you believe it accelerates the fuel air mix. Why you want this I don't know, I think you'll figure out high velocity fuel air and fame are actually bad things. The vortex on the other hand is a G-O-O-D thing as it will develop a more thoroughly mixed fuel air supply in the chamber.

Ted: I'm a little confused by your last few posts. I thought you were making a multiple outlet, ribbon, burner and in your last few posts you're wanting localized heat. The two are mutually exclusive. I'm with you though, for general forging and especially for certain processes I want localized heat but I've given up on useful temperature differentials in a propane forge. I use my torch if it's important, say setting rivets or short twists connected to thin sections. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Another FrankenBurner]

I'm new to IFI, late to the party.  I have read the NARB thread, Forge 101, and Burners 101 entirely in the last couple of weeks.  It has been a pleasure.  A bit daunting at times as there is so much there.  I will have to read them all a couple more times to get it all in.  Calling it 101 after reading it all makes me laugh.  As far as homebrew is concerned, it is as cutting edge as I have found.  Vortex and NARB burners... certainly not freshman material.  We have to be pushing 500's at least, right?

I cobbled together a Freon forge a bunch of years ago reading Ron Reil's pages and any information I could pull from Larry, Wayne, and the hybrid burner page.  Somehow I hadn't stumbled across Mr. Porter's book back then.  While the forge is good and serviceable, I always wanted more information.  I also developed a bit of an obsession with burner design.  I can only imagine it's a similar itch, that Mikey has.  It has been wonderful to feel almost overwhelmed with information.  Not only that but information from Frosty and Mikey.  Information they(you) are treating as open source.  Two members who have produced burners of their(your) own which work so well they are known by the blacksmiths.  Members who are humble enough that we can trust the information they(you) share.  If that wasn't enough, their(your) burners are two ends of a spectrum in my eyes.  One being as KISS as possible while still being a powerful burner, the other being as precise as possible which might make it a bit pickier but also makes it very adjustable.  You disagree at times, you agree at times, others bring in more tangents to the conversation.  Like I said, it has been a pleasure to read and gain understanding.

That said, I am a technician by trade.  I fix all kinds of stuff.  I get to play with all sorts of commercial burners.  As I work on them, I will start getting pictures.  I hope that I can bring a lot of information to these threads, at least as I understand their workings.  I see venturi burners, Bernoulli burners, jet ejector burners, power burners, and sometimes combinations of these.  I see these in both Single Outlet Buners(SOB) and Multi Outlet Burners(MOB).  Manufactures nomenclature varies but typically MOB's are called high efficiency burners and most of them are Power Aspirated(PA).  Not all though.  I do work on a MOB which is 6 inch by 10 inch which is NA.   They employ large numbers of much smaller holes.  The way I see it, more smaller holes allows the block to be thinner while still maintaining laminar flow. This also causes much more even heat and allows for high velocity flames which are short which means hot without impinging material below.  I suspect the thinner burner block cools better with the incoming mix gas. That, along with the high velocity, prevents backfire.  I believe, the number of holes is selected to match the input pressure created by a jet ejector into a venture.  I will get pictures as soon as I can.  That said, this burner works on lower pressure natural gas with a much larger orifice then our high pressure propane burners.  It does go infrared but it is open air so I don't know what it would do in a forge as far as temperature and I imagine the increase in back pressure would cause it to not function properly if at all.  

I look at burners as three major pieces.  Flow input, carburetor, burner head.  Flow input can be powered or induced.  By carburetor, I mean any device that mixes fuel and air.  By head, I mean the device that the flame burns at.  These pieces often combine functions.  My goal is to build a NA, adjustable, high induction carburetor.  After that, to use it with a multiple outlet burner.  This would be my holy grail.  I think powered burners are easier, even though people mess them up as often as NA for the same reason, lack of understanding.   While I know that I could power a low power blower remotely, I'd rather not be tied to electricity when I don't have to be.  I also have a desire to build micro burners.  Not for practicality, just for fun.  If I was always practical, I wouldn't be a blacksmith.

I will have lots of questions, hopefully good ones.  I will try to ask them in the appropriate threads.  If they are already answered somewhere, please direct me.  I will fully search for them before I ask but IFI is awesomely gigantic.  For now, only one train of burner questions.  Sort of burner questions.  Idle valves.  Are they worth the effort?  Does the forge chamber maintain a high enough temperature to not have to wait upon return?  Does it cause thermal cycling of the wall materials in a way which they won't like?  Does it require a choke which should to be adjusted when set to idle?  I would guess several of the questions will be answered with: it depends on the burner.

One last thing, as stated, I am a technician.  I will give any information I can that I think helps anyone, I will not state it as fact unless I know it is.  I am reasonably sure of the things I know but I assume that anything I know can be wrong so please point it out if you know it is wrong so I can educate myself and not be a future source of incorrect information.  I also work on refrigeration systems so if you happen to be in or around Boise, Idaho, I have an almost unlimited supply of refrigerant tanks.  We scrap them as they have no other purpose and I can fit anymore into my own garage.  I believe they are a bit heavier wall then the helium tanks for those who want that.  My next forge will be the larger disposable Freon tank as it is 12 inch diameter and I suspect it will make a great "small" oval forge.  After that, I want to build a NARB powered K26 brick mini forge.  OK, enough about forges in the burner forum.

Thank you to all have contributed to my understanding of burners and forges.  Sorry for the long winded introduction.  Forgive any typo's or miss words, I had a heal event a few years back that muddles my noodle from time to time.