'Possibly' going to make my first knife soon, want some additional advice

[Redneck carp's-tongue]

(FYI, In-between this and my last post I did some fairly extensive research on knife-making so I should at least know most, if not all, the basic principles).

So, after having read the knife-making classes multiple times over and reading through a book on knives and swords, I decided I would seriously try to make a small Yataghan. I've also outlined a plan for that:

• First, my and my father have already cut a 36'' construction steel bar (that we bought at a hardware store) into three even (12'') pieces for use as a trial run of sorts; the actual blade that I show will be made out of proper cutlery steel.
• The second stage of the plan was to form the forward curve most typical Yataghans exhibit, which was easy enough.

There are three more stages for the prototype, and roughly two more for the actual finished blade:

• forming the point: this is possibly going to be the most difficult out of all the processes, because it will require either extensive file work or a grinder. Alternately, my dad has a hacksaw, so I could just cut out the shape I want.
• Sharpening: again, going to require file work. because of my knife's 8in. blade, how long will it take to sharpen all 8 inches?
• handle and tang: this will be made of wood and pinned in through holes.

Processes for the finished blade:

• paracord handle wrap: in addition to wood scales, the handle of the final Yataghan will be wrapped in epoxy-secured paracord and possibly tape.
• scabbard: my dad has worked leather in the past, so he agreed to craft a leather sheath for my non-prototype knife.

Uses for the knife:

• my mother wants a garden, and she also wants trees. she does see potential use of my Yataghan in the form of a pruning knife.

Questions:

First, what do you think of my plan?

Second, what other uses could you people potentially find for a knife like this?

Also, any further advice you would like to give?

[TacticallySharp]

Not really a gardening tool. Basically a short sword used in that part of the world in the old days. Most I have seen have 12 to 16" blades on them.

Being your first edged tool and the time it will take. I would suggest first making a few smaller tools then, make this one. You will end up with a nicer final product that way.

[Latticino]

You missed a critical process for the "finished blade": heat treatment (which we indicated in other posts).  Better go back and research some more.

Curved blades are arguably harder to draw file well.  Might want to start with something a bit easier.  Don't think that Yataghan were typically used for gardening...

That style of blade benefits a lot from being forged to shape.  Will make it easier to put a point on the steel as well.  Of course you need to learn how to forge first.

The time it takes to draw file depends on your stock material characteristics, file type and condition, setup for filing and your own skills and capabilities.  There is no easy way to predict this.  Initial shaping with a 4" grinder might be worth investigating, and get yourself a file card to keep your files clean and cutting well.

I would suggest trying to attend a knife making class if you can, or be very careful what you do with your creations.

Good luck

[Steelfinger]

I'm still pretty newb, but I think I'll throw my two cents in.

 

12 inches is massive for a first knife. I started on nails (sort of failed that) moved on to leaves (actually made some nice ones after a while) and then did a bears head (looks more like a rat and is rather rough) before I did my first knife. it was actually a 5-6 inch Sami knife, and I learned a lot from it (and the grinding it took to fix it....)

my second was recently posted (but an old project) which turned out crude. but I learned to eliminate forge scale (and NOT beat it into the metal!)

If I'm going to be honest, I've always hated the 'cut away' method. the waste steel feels so wrong, hell I avoid grinding where I can. If you do choose this route (because I understand better than most that money gets tight and tools must be substituted) it would be better if it wasn't by hand. and I know the disappointment a lot of these guys give, and I'm giving, but do something smaller. Don't worry a whole lot about uses, or giving it away. Do that later.

Just like sex, your first could be a 'get right into it' almost mechanical feeling, or you can do what you want, and be proud of it. let it be not only a lesson, but something you can keep and treasure. Don't rush it, both as a general rule for learning, and specific to this project.

now, not telling you this is how you should do it, but here are my recommended processes, given what it seems you have for tools:

if you have a drill press, drilling multiple small holes will make the cutting SO MUCH easier, but I'm not sure you'd get them with a hand drill.

if you have a forge, anneal the metal (heat it orange and let it cool as slow as possible) which makes cutting, drilling, and filing a beauty.

also, forge can be used to harden the metal by heating it (again to orange) and cooling it as fast as possible (water works, but pros use old motor oil)

after its hardened, tempering can be done by cleaning the metal, and running a blowtorch over the edge (the colour will change, which is why you clean it, so watch for a straw yellow as one of the first colours for the main body, and a blue for the tip)

assuming the metal isnt terribly thick, you can clamp it down and run the file across the entire edge at about a 22 degree angle (just for the edge) and this wont take too long.

**however, I cannot stress this enough. I'm not sure what cutlery steel you had in mind but watch out for stainless, especially '304' grade because it is so hard and bitchy to work with, I almost sold my forge the one time I (blindly) bought it.**

I think I spent 2 hours and got a failed 'sort of' edge on there with a bench grinder.

thats all I can give you. if you revise your plan, I'd be very interested in knowing what it becomes. but even seeing the final product here would be cool. feel free to PM me for advice

Be aware of the fact that used motor oil is toxic and bad advise.  New is safer, Proper quenchant is best.

 

[jumbojak]

2 hours ago, Steelfinger said:

also, forge can be used to harden the metal by heating it (again to orange) and cooling it as fast as possible (water works, but pros use old motor oil)

after its hardened, tempering can be done by cleaning the metal, and running a blowtorch over the edge (the colour will change, which is why you clean it, so watch for a straw yellow as one of the first colours for the main body, and a blue for the tip)

I doubt too many pros would be quenching many blades in water and even fewer would quench with used motor oil. Many steels, especially in thin cross sections don't react nicely to a water quench. Even the ones that do in larger cross sections are prone to cracking when thin sections of stock need to be hardened - I learned this the hard way, having an old file that hardened perfectly well at its full thickness but was more or less destroyed when a thin blade blank was quenched.

As to the motor oil, a pro would be likely to use a fit to purpose quenching oil, or at least an oil that's not as potentialy toxic as used motor oil. Smoke is never good to breathe in but used motor oil tends to have lots of other crud in it that could seriously hurt you if vaporized and inhaled. 

Different steels require different hardening procedures. Some are quite simple to get to their full austenizing temperature while others require high precision furnaces. Some are water hardening, some are oil hardening, some are air hardening, etc. You have to know your steel, either from the manufacturers spec or by testing it.

Note that I'm not a pro either, just someone who reads a lot and experiments whenever I have the chance. The stickies spread throughout this forum are an excellent resource, and there are many books on the subject that are well worth checking out at the local library.

[Steve Sells]

wow  If i comment on all thats wrong here....  the major points are: used oil is dangerous,  tempering the tip to blue is way to far, people posting wild guesses makes it hard for the new guys to learn.

[Frosty]

5 hours ago, Steve Sells said:

wow  If i comment on all thats wrong here...   the major points are: used oil is dangerous,  tempering the tip to blue is way to far, people posting wild guesses makes it hard for the new guys to learn.

Folk who preface a statement with "I don't know much or anything about (IT) but this is what I think," have always made me wonder why anybody listens to them at all. A little knowledge is dangerous but not just to the person who doesn't know how little they know.

I'm biting my tongue here Steve, I came on a little too harsh once already today so I think I'll keep what I really think to myself.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Depuuty]

5 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Folk who preface a statement with "I don't know much or anything about (IT) but this is what I think," have always made me wonder why anybody listens to them at all. A little knowledge is dangerous but not just to the person who doesn't know how little they know.

I'm biting my tongue here Steve, I came on a little too harsh once already today so I think I'll keep what I really think to myself.

Frosty The Lucky.

No, Frosty I think you're right here

you hit the nail on the head

[TheoRockNazz]

Biting tongues can be just as supportive, especially if it keeps ya from chewing them out - last thing we want is to discourage them

 

There are a couple issues wrong with the stuff above, but let's drop it for now. My advice (and I'm sure the tongue-biters as well), is to make your first project a small utility or paring knife, especially since you do not appear to have access to a forge. Drop practicing with mild steel, buy a long piece of 1" x 1/8" 01 or 1080 tool steel, and gain experience with the real deal. Limit yourself to just hand tools to see what kind of effort this really requires. Heat treating will be a fun challenge.

Read the chapters beforehand, select your materials and design with the limitations of your shop and experience in mind, and try. Then fail and try again. Breaking a knife is the only way to know what you're doing right or wrong sometimes... but most important is to read and understand before even trying.

[Redneck carp's-tongue]

Well, for the record I plan to quench it with salt water.

plus, it's smaller than the real thing, at around 12in. My mom only wanted to use it as a pruning knife after seeing the partially-forged blank. I just chose the design because I liked it. 

Oh, and for the steel, I plan on using 5160. I know by this point that stainless is not good knife steel.

I have made (and heat treated, and quenched) tools in the past: a pair of weed-pullers, both of which worked very well despite being made of construction steel. Those two were excellent learning experiences, as were a "Eta-hook" and a double-S hook I made long before posting this.

I, unfortunately, do not have a drill press, though I do have clamps. Not as good a solution, but still a solution nonetheless.

Really, really good advice, though!

[Steve Sells]

5160 + salt water is not a good mix, some stainless is great for blades.  YOU REALLY NEED TO LISTEN TO PEOPLE before you hurt someone

[Glenn]

1 hour ago, Redneck carp's-tongue said:

Well, for the record I plan to quench it with salt water.

Oh, and for the steel, I plan on using 5160. I know by this point that stainless is not good knife steel.

Game over - YOU WIN !

All the best as you already know what you want to do.

The thread is closed.