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Hot Forging Punches Material & Treatment


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H 13 available from a wide variety of vendors.   It is the material of choice for punching. carving, mangling hot yellow hot steel.  There are other alloys that can be used for short run or one off.  The H indicates that it is a hot work alloy.   It is a chromium / molybdenum alloy with the approximate composition as follows

 

Carbon 0.40% manganese 0.40 % Silicone 1.00% Chromium 5.25% molybdenum 1.35%  vanadium 1.00%  It's virtue is that it holds its shape and edge in contact with hot steel.

It is my preferred alloy for hot work.

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1 minute ago, phabib said:

I don't know what particular alloy Flutagon brand steel is, but it holds up well under heat and the special shape makes it easy to recognize.

To the best of my knowledge that material is no longer manufactured.  A number of years ago I contacted the holder of the patent  and the trade mark.  They were not making it.H13 is available  from a wide variety of vendors around the word and is one of the standard hot work industrial alloys.

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There are a number of other materials which would serve the purpose.  How about CPM 3v?  Also used for hot punches :)

Since the OP has not been on line since the original post we are engaging in a discussion in the choir.  The  S class steels are good for a lot of tool usage in black smiting. The advantage of S class is steel is that it can be forged to shape.

H13 Takes yellow white heat and a lot of care to shape by forging.  There is a fine line between usable and cracked unusable in my personal experience.  My H class tools are mostly ground to shape. 

 

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I bought just over a tonne of Progen twenty years ago when I was feeling flush at the end of the financial year. It is a very blacksmith friendly tool steel which was a proprietary brand by the Seaboard Steel Company, so presumably USA origin. We don't use the word Seaboard much over here.

It is forgeable and can be welded with dissimilar rods. Can be hardened without tempering. I make all my hydraulic press punch and drifts with it. Those I usually just quench in oil rather than water.

It can be hardened sufficiently to be used for edge tools, very versatile.

I have always erred on the side of press and hammer tooling being tough rather than hard. I would far prefer to have to dress a failed edge or straighten a bent tool than have something crack and shatter under stress. Many of my powerhammer tools are just mild steel. As long as the workpiece is hot enough mild steel stands up to it well.

In twenty years I have only used the "just over" bit of my stash of Progen so I still have a tonne of it. I was slightly optimistic about the number of punches I would need to make. So if any body is passing and would like to buy some they are very welcome! Loads of 40mm (1 1/2") and 50mm (2") square perfect for hammer heads and top tools!

Alan

 

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You will be very welcome.

Funnily enough Owen, it was you I was going to ask if you would like to try some for some blades, whether standalone or damascus. Would be most suitable I think.

I will post a list of the sizes I have in the tailgating forum one day.

Alan

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1 hour ago, Everything Mac said:

Hey Alan I'd love a bit of it if I may. I'll drop you a pm. 

All the best 

Andy

Hi Andy,

Yes by all means...90% of it can go. 

The cost is based around the £6 per kilo. It depends what handling and quantity is involved, whether it is more or less than £6. If I have to cut and palletise six inch lengths off each bar section it will cost more....if you drop in one day, cut a bar in half yourself and chuck it in your trailer, only pausing to have a cup of coffee, a chat and to pay money, it will cost less!

Send an email and I will send back a photo of the bar sizes I have.

Alan

P.s. I have posted the bar sizes I have available in the tailgating section.

 

 

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Flutegon A-33 is still available. I just bought 40 ft of it in 3/4" and 1.5"... You just have to call the manufacturer. Atlantic Steel International Corp. in Astoria NewYork. They are excellent to deal with and very Blacksmith friendly.They will cut it to length for you to allow for easier shipping. Super friendly people and they will answer any questions you may have as well. Except for whats in it! It is proprietary.... A-33 is terrific for hot tools of any kind, I use it and I love it. Forge it, quench it, use it. It forges easily, welds easily. It is a good product.

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43 minutes ago, House of D said:

Flutegon A-33 is still available. I just bought 40 ft of it in 3/4" and 1.5"... You just have to call the manufacturer. Atlantic Steel International Corp. in Astoria NewYork. They are excellent to deal with and very Blacksmith friendly.They will cut it to length for you to allow for easier shipping. Super friendly people and they will answer any questions you may have as well. Except for whats in it! It is proprietary.... A-33 is terrific for hot tools of any kind, I use it and I love it. Forge it, quench it, use it. It forges easily, welds easily. It is a good product.

That is great news!  It was 10 years ago and they didn't want to talk to anybody about selling it.

This is the information that I found just a minute ago:Atlantic Steel Corp. is MANUFACTURERS: DISTRIBUTOR company,Tel is (718) 729-4800 / +1-(718) 729-4800,Local at 35-27 36th St.,Astoria,New York.Get in touch with Atlantic Steel Corp. with contact details include tel,fax,address etc.

It would be great if this pans out. 

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For the 3/4" it was about right around $6 a linear foot, I believe. The 1.5" was considerably higher at around $29 bucks a foot, but it is the bee's knees for big hammer eye drifts, slitters,punches and what have you. When they turn red, dunk'em in water and keep hammering away. They also have different shapes, other than Flutegon. And different sizes I believe. He will tell you what he has available when you call. They will be happy to give you a quote. 

D

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1 hour ago, House of D said:

For the 3/4" it was about right around $6 a linear foot, I believe. The 1.5" was considerably higher at around $29 bucks a foot, but it is the bee's knees for big hammer eye drifts, slitters,punches and what have you. When they turn red, dunk'em in water and keep hammering away. They also have different shapes, other than Flutegon. And different sizes I believe. He will tell you what he has available when you call. They will be happy to give you a quote. 

D

Was that round, square or octagon section? Plus tax and shipping or inclusive? I would like to work out how it compares to the £6 per kilo Progen cost.

Alan

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Alan,

The stock that I bought was all the flutegon shape, if I want another shape I forge it out. They did have other shapes though, he mentioned round and octagon. And, the shipping is not included, nor is tax. Shipping wasn't bad for me, but I suspect your shipping will be much different than mine, being as you are in the UK. And the steel prices change daily here, so a quick call to check costs is a good idea if you really want to know how they compare. I just like the fact that at least there is one steel in my shop that I don't have to write on, or if the lettering gets rubbed off, burned off etc., wonder what it is. That shape can only be one thing. A-33. Its handy because I have tools made from 4140 too. When I forge the flutegon I usually forge the shape I need and leave a small section, or large, depending on the tool, in that unique shape, so when I grab it there is no doubt what steel it is, and I don't have to fret about dunking it in water to cool it, how it will handle the heat, or if its gonna gall. Its tough stuff.

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1 hour ago, House of D said:

Alan,

The stock that I bought was all the flutegon shape, if I want another shape I forge it out. They did have other shapes though, he mentioned round and octagon. And, the shipping is not included, nor is tax. Shipping wasn't bad for me, but I suspect your shipping will be much different than mine, being as you are in the UK. And the steel prices change daily here, so a quick call to check costs is a good idea if you really want to know how they compare. I just like the fact that at least there is one steel in my shop that I don't have to write on, or if the lettering gets rubbed off, burned off etc., wonder what it is. That shape can only be one thing. A-33. Its handy because I have tools made from 4140 too. When I forge the flutegon I usually forge the shape I need and leave a small section, or large, depending on the tool, in that unique shape, so when I grab it there is no doubt what steel it is, and I don't have to fret about dunking it in water to cool it, how it will handle the heat, or if its gonna gall. Its tough stuff.

Duh! Of course it was, silly me. And to my further shame, I have no excuse...I have just been reading an interesting article by Dave Smucker in the Florida Artist Blacksmith  Association news letter, about the history of Flutagon. It was apparently shaped like that for exactly those readily identifiable reasons for the services doing field work in the  14-18 War.

Is it a nominal size? I.e. Started out as 3/4" square and then had the flutes rolled into it, or does it measure 3/4" across the peaks or across troughs?

It is interesting that it shares much of the make up of Progen, especially the wierd addition of copper.  The only differences being the ti in Progen and the manganese in Flutagon.

 Alan

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Alan,

You got me there, And I don't have a piece with me to measure. I'll check when I get home. I'd like to see that article by Dave Sucker, do you have a link? And I have ever been curious as to its make up, but have never seen anyone actually have it tested. I have heard a few rumors that I know to be wrong through use. I'll check the dimension of it when I get home and post it this evening.

D

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Here is a phrase from the .pdf article by Dave Smucker (note the "m" in his surname) which should put it top of the search results...I did a screen grab of the pdf to show you the recipe but then had second thoughts about the etiquette of posting something here which is archived on another blacksmithing site. Hopefully this will not transgress any unwritten (or indeed written) code here..  "It is called "Flutagon or Atlantic 33". I have been able to obtain data and some history on this steel and it surprised me somewhat in that it is"

Alan

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Alan,

I have measured the A-33....It is exactly 1/64" over stated dimension, from the outside of the flutes, conversely it is about the same amount under true dimension if measured flute to flute!....Being a blacksmith, welder...and not a machinist, this means it is exactly the right size to me! Thanks for the link!

D

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