A practiced eye to help identify some wrought.

[TimeToWaste]

 Hello to all, thank you in advance for your time and consideration. I have recently come across what I think is a healthy pile of wrought iron. I believe all pieces are wrought except for the spike on the right in the second pic(3 in last pic). I would try to cut and bend or spark test if my angle grinder was not on vacation...(funny how tools go on then never return from vacation)All show grain where rust was knocked off. Looking for a more practiced eye to confirm my guesses.

 Just a thought, if wrought doesn't harden, could I bring it up to temp, quench and try to bend in vice? Should still bend,? Or have I missed something,  still new to all this. Thanks again.

Sorry so many pics...lots of different pieces to identify.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Yes that is wrought iron. The woodgrain look is a dead giveaway.

As to bending. Either bend it cold if you have the capabilities, or heat and bend. No need to quench. 

[Crazy Ivan]

Definitely looks like wrought to me. 

[TimeToWaste]

 Thank you for a speedy reply, thought I got lucky on this one, hard to be sure without someone who knows though. 

 Now an ethical/moral question....there is about 200' of the heavy bar, maybe that much in varying dimensions of smaller bar(most bars in lengths between 2-4', hunderss of the 6" and 12" spikes and a pile of the unknown steel spikes. 

 The problem, all of this apparently abandoned iron is wasting away in a river, with nobody to ask permission to salvage... let this resource rot or pick and hope no harm has been done?

 Thanks again.

[ThomasPowers]

Classic pattern for rusted wrought iron.

Note: Not all wrought iron is very low carbon; and very low carbon mild steel will bend after quenching too so that methodology is right out.

Did your hacksaw go on vacation with your angle grinder?

Not knowing what country you are in makes it hard to advise you on the aspects of getting it...

[TimeToWaste]

 I was missing something, kind of felt that way, saved me a lot of head scratching, thanks. Hacksaw? What's a hacksaw? That's an obvious miss on my part, thanks again. Frosty suggested I post my general location but I couldn't find a place on profile page, does he mean post in title or am I missing something again..? I live in the Cooperstown area of Central New York. The iron is a few counties away.

 

[DSW]

1 hour ago, TimeToWaste said:

  Frosty suggested I post my general location but I couldn't find a place on profile page, does he mean post in title or am I missing something again..? I live in the Cooperstown area of Central New York. The iron is a few counties away.

 

If you go up to the top right corner and click on your name, 1st thing under "content" is "Profile". Click on that. Then at the top right there is a small pencil that says "edit", click on that and scroll down until you get to location and enter that there.

 

Stuff in rivers and creeks can change from place to place. Some states claim anything embedded in rivers and lakes. That usually only gets pushed if you are trying to make money, say recovering old drowned logs etc, though pulling large quantities on iron/steel for scrap might fall under that as well. Occasional items probably won't be an issue.

 

Note though that places like dams, bridges viaducts etc might be an issue because of security and terrorism. I used to dive under old railway trestles looking for things like old tools, watches, jewelry etc ( people loose them when jumping into the river) or they'd toss things like old bottles or plates from trains as they'd pass. However that isn't as easy as it once was and I know a couple of people who dive like that who have surfaced to see the cops waiting for them and getting questioned. Those guys have never been arrested, but they have been hassled and in a couple of cases they've been threatened by police with arrest. Apparently it's fine to jump off the bridge and swim, but diving with scuba gear gets frowned upon... Basically the cops simply don't want to get called out regularly to deal with this.

 

I never thought of diving for wrought iron. I probably saw plenty of wrought iron pins in old RR telegraph poles sunk under those bridges. I've got a hand full of old glass insulators from the signal wires that were still attached to the poles when I found them underwater. I do have a few wrought brass spikes I've recovered from old wooden vessels sunk in the ocean off Jersey.

[ThomasPowers]

hmmmm does your county have a local conservation group?  Might try to contact them and say you want to help clean up the river in that area but don't want to get into trouble could they advise you how???

[TimeToWaste]

Thanks for the heads up on the profile.DSW, I will keep your warnings in mind, especially with some of the excursions I've been contemplating. New York really is the Empire state and will probably take offense to me not cutting them in. Best tread lightly, maybe just a bit at a time.

Thomas, hadn't thought along those lines, never would have, great idea. Everyone loves free labor, "garbage" removal.

 Thanks again.

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The rub is if it is a certain age the federal antiquities act may come into play depending on where it is exactly. I believe the age is if it is 100 years old. This is a big deal down here in the desert, and big fines if you get caught.

[TimeToWaste]

I've never heard of the act being used in NY, although it seems it certainly could. While on the job in certain historical areas around here if your crew is digging and uncover Indian artifacts OR colonial artifacts the site can be closed until archeological research can be done. Thanks for the heads up, I had no idea about the act and it could be pertinent in this situation.

[Michael]

Some west coast smiths recently rescued a LOT of wrought from a collapsed dam on a river. The plan, if asked, was to say they were 'clearing the river of debris'.

Battery powered grinders and pack horses were required, as I understand the tale.

[TimeToWaste]

I assume they were never asked?

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The antiquities act applies to federal lands, not private, sooooo... who is in control of that stretch of river?

[TimeToWaste]

I think I have to head back out there to make sure I didn't miss posted signs in my haste, it'd be a shame to make this a huge problem, could be as easy as asking some neighbors about ownership. As far as I can tell from my limited ability to read legalese, property rights extend to the high water mark on navigable rivers(in NY), navigable rivers are a public right of way, the submerged land is owned but no one can impede progress on its surface. The pile is not submerged so I think I'm in the clear with the state.

[Leon Renaud]

With this all being in 1 place in the river I would wonder if it is the site of some kind of wreck? an old boat wreck or train wreck or even the location of an old water powered forge! but being a history nut is what got me into Blacksmithing in the first place!

 

 

 

[TimeToWaste]

I think its the remnants of an old dock, long bars were driven through timbers and 6x6 beams, spikes were holding decking, long gone now. There are no other structures but who knows what was there.

[Wroughton]

I find old bridge landings and mill sites, mines, RR stops and camps. Definitely easier to get permission out here for removing things but metal is a no brainer in a river known for its recreation. I now have the salvage rights for the timber still left near us, iron is a by blow. Most was tossed as garbage but there were some treasures.

Swage block, broad axes and hoes, picks, hammers, double barrel percussion cap shotgun, yards of hand forged chain.

Test the waters, I would guess that bureaucracy will get in the way and everyone will want you to pay them for a permit. Maybe talk to a salvage company? They may know how to proceed if you're just taking rusty iron. 

My permits were done through the water conservation district and EVERYONE has to sign off. Since we aren't technically using power equipment below the high water mark we were able to skirt around scrutiny from entities (Army Corps of Engs, DNRC) that would have probably charged a sizable lump and drug us through months/years of red tape. They still had to be contacted individually and sign off on the permit. We weren't hired to do the job so there's no expectations or goals to reach and no performance bond or other nonsense like that. 

The trout are forged and fabricated from mild steel but the "current" lines are all wroughton from the river. I left some of the wrapped and forge welded bold heads on some.

[Daswulf]

Beautiful work Wroughton. I'm guilty of nabbing some ultra rusted rr spikes from the waters edge while kayaking. Literally had to hammer off the half thickness of rust to expose the iron core. Do you think little finds like that are an issue? Never thought about it but I'm guessing it would be more on permits for bigger scale reclamation. 

[TimeToWaste]

Very nice work, I enjoy seeing "garbage" turned into something beautiful. I haven't been back to the site yet, the river must be freezing over by now anyway. I'm still on the fence but leaning toward just getting permission and doing it right. Don't want to get caught up in something over a pile of iron. 

Makes me wonder, would anyone have a problem if it was a rock or a piece of driftwood I was taking? Will anyone even notice when this material is swallowed by mud. Why is everything so regulated and controlled? I would happily clean as much of the area as possible, improve the health and scenery of the river, dispose of the waste and fully enjoy the byproduct of my(our) work(would've been done by now), all the while hurting no one or disturbing the ecology(as little as possible anyway) why do I need permission? Frustrating.

[DSW]

6 hours ago, TimeToWaste said:

Makes me wonder, would anyone have a problem if it was a rock or a piece of driftwood I was taking? Will anyone even notice when this material is swallowed by mud. Why is everything so regulated and controlled? .

A lot of these book smart archaeologists think every single wreck or old building site is of historical importance and must be saved in tact until they have a chance to use public funds to examine it themselves. They have managed to convince enough politicians and career bureaucrats  that stuff like this is critical to preserve our 'heritage". These politicians and bureaucrats go along happily as it ensures their jobs.

I've seen it in diving where they have made it almost impossible to recover stuff from many places as sport divers or even licensed salvage divers. It doesn't matter that much of this stuff in salt water will not survive the destructive elements of the ocean, or that there is no way they will ever get enough funding to excavate even the important sites, let alone the common ones.

You'd think the way they talk, that they'd be out there trying to protect every car wreck on the highway so 100 years from now they can come along and examine how we lived today. That's pretty much what they are doing with old stuff. The old stuff was trash and discarded as not worth salvaging even at a time when labor was cheap and materials were expensive. At sea they won't have to worry about modern wrecks. Legislation passed by environmental  groups means that you pretty much have to completely remove most wrecks in salvageable waters no matter what the cost today.

[TimeToWaste]

Do you think those politicians would feel the same if the mess was in their river frontage? Or their loved one tripped and hurt themselves on some rusty iron? Bet we would hear the battle cry from miles away," we must clean this river", oh well, it must be nice to be one of the privileged few who make those types of decisions for us. 

[Wroughton]

On December 20, 2015 at 0:55 PM, Daswulf said:

Beautiful work Wroughton. I'm guilty of nabbing some ultra rusted rr spikes from the waters edge while kayaking. Literally had to hammer off the half thickness of rust to expose the iron core. Do you think little finds like that are an issue? Never thought about it but I'm guessing it would be more on permits for bigger scale reclamation. 

Thank you Daswulf. I'm still practicing. 

No, I don't think the little stuff is an issue. In some places the big stuff isn't an issue, especially in the river. We have fast moving free stone streams that move and change the river bottom every year. Something you may be floating over in spring time is probably poking out in late summer. So iron out, along with engine blocks, road signs, tons of flip flops, draft horse shoes and whatever else (barbie edition shakespear fishing rod).

 

 

[netman]

I found a couple old wooden barges sunk off a sandbar. They are only visible during summer pool stage. I have picked up several pieces of wrought iron from them. If someone is interested I would be willing to sell or trade it. PM me if interested.  I can send pictures with measurements.