ljohnson Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 i've been working on a pattern welded steel project but my Whisper Mama forge just barely gets hot enought to forge weld. I'm working from my basement shop in a residential area so coal is not an option and am at about 5600' elevation so that might affect the heat output too. Any suggestion for boosting the temperature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdwarner Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 i have two question, i would love to work in my basement what precautions do you take number two is i have the same question as you concerning heat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt walker Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 I've no hands on experience with it. But a friend uses propylene in a forge that wasn't getting quite hot enough for welding and was pleased with it.Propylene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paragon Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 This if from Ron Reil's site talking about the Mongo burner A Note about Economy vs. Efficiency: There are numerous comments in my pages about "economy" and "efficiency." They do not mean the same thing. As I use these terms, the economy of a burner refers to how much its going to cost you to run it. The efficiency of a burner, in the way its used in my pages, refers to how much air it can draw in due to the strength of the vacuum it creates in the intake bell or ports at a given gas pressure. There are only so many BTUs available in a pound of propane, and no matter what you do you can not get any more than that out. If two different designs of burners are both running with a totally neutral burn at 100% combustion, and maintaining two identical forge chambers at the same temperature, their economy will be identical. The Micromongo Burner can produce higher temperatures than the Reil Burner, but it uses more fuel to do this. If you lower the output of the Micromongo so that the temperature inside the forge chamber is the same as in an identical forge chamber heated with a Reil Burner, the fuel usage, or economy, should be the same. If they are not, then one or the other is not running at optimal tuning. So don't choose the Micromongo Burner because you think it will save you money, it won't. It will give you the ability to get the same economy as provided by the Reil Burner, but it will also allow you to reach higher temperatures than the Reil Burner can attain, but this will cost you more in fuel usage. There is just no free lunch. It is likely that overall you will spend more money on fuel with the Micromongo burner because you will probably want to use that extra heat range to run a hotter forge. You pay for what you get. Note: We were very surprised by the results of some recent side by side tests of the T-Rex and Reil burners. They both consumed about the same amount of fuel, yet the T-Rex was much hotter. We concluded that the mixing and fuel/air ratios in the T-Rex are superior, and provide a better burn, thus extracting more of the BTU heat value from the fuel than the Reil burner is capable of doing. The T-Rex is both more economical, and more efficient. It is more econimical because it can be run at a lower gas pressure, using less fuel, and obtain a comparable temperature in the chamber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljohnson Posted December 24, 2007 Author Share Posted December 24, 2007 i have two question, i would love to work in my basement what precautions do you take number two is i have the same question as you concerning heat my basement/shop is basically a concrete box with a steel form deck and concrete ceiling. I have a joke that the acetylene could explode down there and you would'nt hear it upstairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
habu68 Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 Since air is some 80% nitrogen and of no use to the heating of the forge you might want to look at a heat recapture device that channels the air entering the burner thru the dragons breath. Care must be taken not to add the spent dragons breath back into the burner as this will make the CO levels skyrocket. two other things that can be done is to reduce the size of your door opening increasing the back pressure and reducing the heat loss to the dragon breath. I'm at about 5280 ft myself and I had to ad a small blower and increase the fuel pressure to reach welding temps. I am using Ron Reil style home made burners and just added a blower from a dishwasher. I tune it with a can lid covering the intake. it just slips over the burner when needed. Here is a pic of the same blower on my coal forge. Do You Have A CO Detector: don't let that concrete box you work in turn into a vault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 ljohnson Go to the top of the forum page and click on User CP Click on Edit profile Go to the bottom of the page and enter your location, then save. It would be nice to know where in the world your located. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 There was a recent thread on using propane forges in a shop with open doors and still setting off a CO detector. If you do not have a CO detector, get on and use it. There is no free ride, if you need more heat you need to use more fuel (burned gases). This can be done by adding oxygen for a more complete burn or adding more gas and oxygen. If your short on oxygen from the elevation, then you NEED to check the CO levels early and often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sdalcher Posted December 24, 2007 Share Posted December 24, 2007 a small blower will boost your temperatures very well. It will infact cause it to melt 2000 degree refractory. I was having problems getting my foundry burner to a melting point for brass. Slip a small blower to feed into the inlet of the propane burner, achieved melt in under 3 minutes, and also succeeded in melting the refractory out of my furnace I was a little upset about ruining my firnace, but it was a grand experiment! PS Please take every possible safety precaution in using any kind of flammable in an enclosed basement.. An Oh XXXX moment there could cost you your life or your house. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
imagedude Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 I've used mini 24volt blowers with some success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 A whisper momma will forge weld at 7000 feet with no changes at all you may wish to check and see if one of the jets is plugged, take the manifold off and clean it out and take a peek through both jets to see they are clear. If you do not have a pressure adjustment on the guage unit then you need one. Is the refractory in good shape and is the floor of the forge intact? if not you need to put them back like they were...good luck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fat pete Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 what pressure are you running?...and how many burners of what size? My Propane forge attains welding temp nooo problem.... you really need to bring in outside air to your forge area...and you need to exhaust it....please be carefull in such an enclosed space...you wont notice it till it bites you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted December 25, 2007 Share Posted December 25, 2007 Rich metioned the refactory when I have a gas forge that seems cold the first thing I think about is the liner. If it is not right that is likely your problem. (If you have been coating the bottom with flux or it is just worn out.) If you are planning to do a lot of welding in there you may want to use something on the floor to protect it from your flux like kiln shelf or very thin fire brick. I of course am not much above sea level here though. Hope you find a simple solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeatGuy Posted December 26, 2007 Share Posted December 26, 2007 Try an oxygen generator ... found on ebay. It can be used to enrich the o2 mix at the venturi. Also try recycling the waste heat thru a heat exchanger. I have a small forge that I was expermenting with which includes a heat exchanger and a "ribbon burner". I find that it generaly to hot but may be good for making billets. There is also a "drax torch" the principles of the torch could be used in a blacksmiths forge burner:(WO/1999/001698) IMPROVEMENTS IN BURNERS I can not seem to find the book mark I had to "drax torch" document at the USPTO which is very interesting. If I find it I will post it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljohnson Posted December 26, 2007 Author Share Posted December 26, 2007 Don't worry about the CO levels. I keep 2 fans running in the shop, one pulls in fresh air from outside and the other is set up right above the forging area to draw away fumes and exhaust. Still a good idea to get a CO detector though. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljohnson Posted December 26, 2007 Author Share Posted December 26, 2007 what pressure are you running?...and how many burners of what size? My Propane forge attains welding temp nooo problem.... you really need to bring in outside air to your forge area...and you need to exhaust it....please be carefull in such an enclosed space...you wont notice it till it bites you Im running it at about 12+ lbs, and have exhaust fans and make-up air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPH Posted December 27, 2007 Share Posted December 27, 2007 Hello: Do you try coating the insides with ITC 100?? If not try it and you will see a major difference in temps...it refelcts at least 90% of the heat right back into the cavity...Neat stuff... JPH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljohnson Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 I added a blower to one side and when i fired up the forge to see if it worked it looked like that side wasn't even firing. Also just filled the propane tank and the pressure on the regulator is sporadically jumping around from 12# to 15+# with flames leaping out about 1ft futher than usual, frost forming on the hose and sloooow bleed time afer shut off. Is this indicative of a bad regulator or an overfilled tank? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted December 28, 2007 Share Posted December 28, 2007 The burners on that forge are designed to run with no added pressure. An overfilled tank would release the overpressure from the safety valve. Most of the big suppliers of lpg should be able to test your regulater for you. You may want to give the folks that made the forge a call and discus your problems. I know they are on your side and would like you to be happy with their product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljohnson Posted December 28, 2007 Author Share Posted December 28, 2007 A whisper momma will forge weld at 7000 feet with no changes at all you may wish to check and see if one of the jets is plugged, take the manifold off and clean it out and take a peek through both jets to see they are clear. If you do not have a pressure adjustment on the guage unit then you need one. Is the refractory in good shape and is the floor of the forge intact? if not you need to put them back like they were...good luck... I bought it brand new and from day 1 it has never gotten up to welding temperature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Funk Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 I appreciate the warnings from others on CO as it a real hazard in non open areas in which propane forges are operated. We tend to "overfuel" propane forges resulting in high CO output. That is one reason they have dragons breath as some of you call it. This should be reminder to all as we operate propane forges in our enclosed shops during the winter. One other item I wish to point out is all propane cylinders have a pressure relief valve on them they may relieve in the case of over pressure and for other miscellaneous causes, ie mechanical failure. If the valve relieves it would fill the basement with an explosive mixture. This the one of the reasons the cylinders say on them do not use or store in an enclosed area. Propane gas is heavier air which makes its use in basements problematic as it tends to collect. A relief valve opening, a leak or failed ignition could cause pockets of gas to collect. Natural gas is lighter than air and disperses more readily. I doubt your insurance company and local fire marshall would look kindly on this device being operated in your basement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalmangeler Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Hi IJohnson Have you welded in a gas forge before? If not something to consider is that your forge does not need to bring steel to sparking to be at a welding heat. Seems like a major bummer to have a brand new forge that is not doing what it should. If you have not welded in gas before try to get someone who has to give it a try. If you have lots of experince well this doesn't apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddog Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 Gas forges do a poor job of mixing and burning the air and propane . You can often dramatically improve the performance of your forge by putting some firebrick or refractory rubble on the floor of the forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted December 30, 2007 Share Posted December 30, 2007 What kind of steel are you trying to weld? Mild steel welds at a higher temp than higher carbon steels Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ljohnson Posted December 30, 2007 Author Share Posted December 30, 2007 What kind of steel are you trying to weld? Mild steel welds at a higher temp than higher carbon steels Im welding an old high carbon 1/4" thick file to a 1/4" piece of mild. The first few welds took fine and Im wire brushing and grinding the faces between welds so they're plenty clean. Also sprinkling borax between layers before welding so thats not the issue either. P.S. lets keep the preachy safety B.S. to a minimum. Im 21 and have been forging since i was 10. I don't know much but im not a complete fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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