Restoring a Peter Wright need some advice

[Blackcatbones]

I want to move my knifemaking from stock removal to forging. I have an old Peter Wright I picked up a few years ago. So far its just been sitting around gathering dust while I try to come up with a game plan. Now I want to get this whole thing going. 

I once had some info on this anvil but have not been able to track it down. Near as I can tell its around 100 pounds. Ive included images of the factory marks as well as the various damaged parts. Sorry I dont know of the images are upside down or not. I post from my ipad so they tend to post upside down... No idea why. Gravity perhaps ?

First issue I want to deal with is the face. I want to resurface the face to make it suitable for forging blades. For this im thinking of using a grinder and going slow as to not heat it up a whole lot (possibly in an ice bath to keep the temp low as possible) then moving to a flap sanding disk and finishing by hand with a sanding blocks and a lot of elbow grease.

The next issue is the damage to the edge... Im not sure if its been repaired before or if thats a steel plate delaminating from an iron core. Either way I would like to fill that with weld and reshape it. I know this can be a bit contravercial. Im a welder by trade and can keep the temps cool enough to touch (For the most part) but that brings up other issues. Ive heard of people doing this repair with mig but I prefere to stick weld it. I have heard there are some welding rods that are better for this (recommendations ?)  in the end it doesnt have to be perfect or like new... If the repairs fall apart over time ill just repair it again.

In theory im set up in a way that I can could rebuild it and possibly heat treat it. But for that I need to know more about what this anvil is. Iron core with a steel face, solid steel, and so on. As well as what sort of hardness I should be aiming for. I know (issues with laminate steel face to iron) this is just a thought.

I want to get it to working condition on a tight budget. Not really concerned about the historical value (sorry) its a tool and I need it to work. Also I suspect its been welded before.

I could use help with identifying this anvil and a basic game plan to get it into shape. Any other possible options are also welcome. The plan ive described is just how I would approch this. Perhaps there are better options.

Thanks!

 

[Dogsoldat]

Just very lightly radius where the chipped out edges are and put it to use,  anything you remove is hardened steel you won't get back for another 50 years of hard use.  Same or better shape than my peter wright and it works just fine.  Scale and use will shiny up the face before you know it.  If you find you need a really sharp square corner make up  a hardy tool for that.   Best thing for now is put it to use and see where you feel it's at in a year

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The top plates are not that thick, so grinding can do more harm than good. 

Peter Wright's are known to get sway in them, as the wrought body gives way over time. I have seen some that are very curved over the top.

If you are just looking for a very flat and smooth surface, you may want to look into a saddle plate that sits on top, or just buy a chunk of tool steel and have it heat treated. That may be the best option, even though it may not be the least expensive one. The other option would be to trade it off for something that will work for you better.

But, what I would do first is just use it, and see if it is detrimental to your work as is. You may be fretting over nothing.

BTW, it is 113# by the markings. 1_0_1 = 112# + 0 + 1# = 113#

[Frosty]

I cringe when I see a topic titled with "restoring" anvils, more have been ruined by folk "restoring" them than Sherman did on his march to the sea. The face plates aren't that thick, grinding on them is shortening their life to little gain, even short term. The worst edges could maybe use a little cleaning up but there's plenty of good edge left you can just avoid the rough ones.

Other than that it just needs you to beat some hot steel on it. Remember the old time blacksmith's advice about forging blades. "Forge it thick, grind it thin." If you want to make the unfinished blades (I can never recall what they're called) you'd be leaving texture deliberately so that's perfect as it sits.

If you need a pristine surface and edges make a bottom tool as suggested. Sharp edges are a sign of an undressed anvil they're not desirable they leave cold shuts when shouldering and are weak spots that chip.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Blackcatbones]

Perfect that all makes sense to me, ill leave it alone. My concern with the face is im often told for forging blades you want a pristine surface or the marks will transfere. Im not overly worried about some marks but I want to avoid huge amounts of grinding (defeats the purpose of getting away from stock removal) ill give it a try as is. Sounds like it will be ok.

Thanks!

[Frosty]

You get to do plenty of grinding whether you forge or do stock removal unless you produce the as forged blades.

If after you've used it a year or so you still need it cleaned up you'll have the experience to judge and know how much to do.

Frosty The Lucky.

Edited September 13, 2015 by Frosty

[the iron dwarf]

get a smooth block of something hardenable and use that for finishing, one place the face is delaminating so avoid hitting in that area as it could spread and check for how far it goes by tapping the top to see where it sounds hollow.

you may want to paint or mark that area so you do not use it

[DSW]

 My concern with the face is im often told for forging blades you want a pristine surface or the marks will transfere.

Keep in mind that if you haven't forged before, there is a fairly good learning curve. It's a lot like writing. When you start out you form those kid like letters that may be cute in some ways, but aren't what you put on a resume. It takes quite a bit of practice to graduate from using big pencils and crayons to doing calligraphy with specialized pens and ink.

When I used to shoot high power, I was told not to worry too much about my rifle and ammo combination until they were limiting my scores. Up until that time, it was my skill set that needed the most attention. Same goes here. You'll know when your tools are starting to limit your work. Up until that time a pristine anvil is a liability in some ways. Chances are you'll mark up that pristine surface with misstrikes trying to learn the basics. You have a good working anvil to learn on.

[Blackcatbones]

That is true. Looking at it today im thinking it should be just fine the way it is. Im finding this is a steep learning curve but I have a little feel for it. In high school metalshop class a large part of the curriculum was blacksmithing. I was right at home there but the equipment was also new so I look at the equipment I have available now and in my mind I keep comparing it to that class setup lol.

[DSW]

That's cool that you had blacksmithing is shop class. My Jr high shop had both a forge and furnace. The forge wasn't used much beyond heating and bending though. That was  way back in the early 80's and sadly none of the schools in my area now have shop any longer. It's not until kids hit their Junior and Senior year in High school that they have the opportunity to take classes at the tech school. Those classes are geared strictly towards kids getting a job out of school in the industry, be it welding, HVAC, carpentry or whatever rather than the generic wood/metals/plastic type shop classes I had the chance to take.

 

Either it's been a while since you took shop, or you are very lucky to have gone to a school that still promoted hands on skills.

[Frosty]

Another thing to consider. It's pretty normal for newcomers to a craft to want the best in tools, we've been tool users for a couple hundred thousand years and it's pretty well hard wired in to think of tools as the magic that makes our world go.

Bearing that in mind folk who are telling you you NEED a pristine almost anything aren't masters of the craft. That pristine, perfect even tool can't do anything, it's not EVEN highly refined dirt without a human working it.

Iron and steel is human civilization's foundation, it's made from or with steel even makes our blood red. This makes what it has to teach us worth many human lifespans and that's only a bare taste. It's a lifelong learning curve.

It's only steep if you try to go fast. Just keep at it it's never boring.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Matthew D]

New to the forum, but not new to forging, anvils and smithing.  Frosty does have a excellent point and I agree with what he says.  You don't need a perfect tool to get started.  Use the anvil for a while without doing anything to it, except maybe a little face clean up with a fine sander.  You will find it will be very serviceable.  My first anvil was a foot long piece of 8 inch round stock of somewhat mild steel that I picked up at the Homer landfill (yep long time Alaskan till I was transplanted to the lower 48).  I just turned it on end and used the flat face.  Then I used a pretty beat up 200 pound PW for a while.  I forged dozens of knives on my round anvil.  Give your anvil a go and then take a look at restoring it.   The bottom hardy tool option works great too.  You can do a lot with a good hardy tool.

Maybe I will get booed for posting my remark about restoring an anvil's edges and face back to a condition which gives you the edges and a face that are suitable to doing the type of forging you are looking for.  I personally prefer taking the time to forge as close to finish as possible.  Less grinding.  

Along with the features of a good tool steel face and weight, an anvil's edges and a smooth face are a very important part of the anvil allowing you to do a number of import forging tasks.  

I cringe when I see an anvil with a face that has arc marks all over it and edges that have been beat so hard that they are cracked and shattered.  Every time I see an anvil with torch cuts in it I want to ask the person who did that, "what in the blankyity blank were you thinking?"  At some point someone did some work on that anvil without really understanding what an anvil is for.  They started using it for a welding/cutting table.   An anvil is not a steel table to lay your welding work on!  Edges are NOT cut off hardies.  Oh well..  My first impulse is to figure out how to repair the anvil.   I am currently in the process of restoring a Trenton back to the way I want it.  

Just keep in mind hundreds of anvils have been successfully restored back to like-new and are now great working tools and will continue to provide dozens of years of service.  Most of these old anvils had thousand of hours of work done on them.  They were used every day by a blacksmith back in the day.  Unless you are going to be doing this for a livelihood, your anvil will see minimum use while you own it.  

You will find a very informative anvil restoration article published in 1998 in an online anvil magazine(I won't mention the website, just go do a search).  Also, you will find pretty smart well experienced smithies, machinist and welders, who have personally restored many many anvils back to 99%.  Follow the directions in that article carefully.  Preheating the anvil to around 400 degrees is a must.  Pick up a temp stick for that.  For welds between the wrought iron and tool steel face use a suitable rod for that purpose.  Stoody 2110 is a good rod for this.  Talk to your local welding supplier.  They are a trove of knowledge and will help you find the right rod to build up the wrought iron enough to lay in some hard facing.  Welding to the tool steel which more than likely is W-1 tool steel, use Stoody 1105 or an equivalent hardface rod.  Most hardface rod is pretty simple to lay in. Just watch your welding settings to get the bead you need.  Cleaning the welding surfaces is very important.  Remove the rust, scale and paint before welding.  

Good luck...

I'm a blacksmith, what's your superpower?

 

[Frosty]

Ah HAH! The mythical bladesmith in Homer, at last we meet. . . sort of. You sure kept a low profile, then again I'm no detective. Pat checks in here occasionally, maybe he'll say hi.

I believe you're referring to Rob Gunter's anvil rebuild technique. Yes? It sure sounds like it and I've used the technique myself with good results. A person does need to know how to use hardfacing rods, it isn't just strike and run rod and you're limited in the number of passes you can overlay. Done correctly it's THE way to reface an anvil with an arc welder.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Matthew D]

Frosty,

Yes, I am referring to the article by Gunther and Schuler.   Their article is one of the best I have come across in restoring an anvil.  Even still, it isn't for the faint in heart or amateur with no welding experience to tackle an anvil restore.  A competent welder and someone with some understanding can successfully accomplish it.  I am no pro, but I do have ambition and patience.  

I recently attended a Bonneville Forge Council conference and learned from Brian Brazeal, tool making and forging techniques.  During the conference, he preferred using a home built striking anvil with good corners to the big old anvil with chipped corners to demonstrate forging techniques. I was quite impressed at how much he stressed the need for good corners in half on/half off forging.  That is the type of forging I am now interested in.

I don't know if me or my dad is that mythical bladesmith you are referring to or not.  Honored though if it is.  Could be someone else.  We have only made and sold less than 100 hunting knives between the two of us, all of which tend to be a modified sheep/buffalo skinners of the old fashioned type. My brother still makes knives and so does my father(He's still in Homer).  We only started making knives because we could never find a hunting knife that we liked.  Then friends started asking us to make them one.  I gave away, traded or sold all the knives I made back in the 90s and early 2000s.  I only have one knife that my dad put together for me in my personal collection anymore, and it has only seen hide once in 10 years.  Dad still gets an occasional request and my brother tends to keep busy making them more on the side than as a business concern.  Dad and I made most of our stuff from tool steel like Chipper or D2 we salvaged from the logging operation. 

When I made knives out of forged tool steel, I quickly learned to forge my blade on the best surface of the anvil, as I hated spending hours grinding out divots and pock marks in very hard steel.  I liked to pack the edges of my blade and forge shape the blade tips and tangs.  Often I went to the cut-off saw to do a little metal removal and then went back to the forge and anvil.  My best blades were ones with minimal grinding on after forging out.  I liked full tangs, where my dad liked hidden tangs, so I worked on getting the tangs as flat as possible.  A good clean face on the anvil sure made life easier.  With the old PW we used (on loan) I found a clean spot that I did most of my forging on.  

Anyhow, good luck to BlackCatBones and anyone who is considering restoring an anvil.  Also, visit your local ABANA chapter and see what help or advice you can find.  Remember it is your anvil and you will be the one working on it.  Don't ruin it, but fixing up something right is all part of the joy of making something with it. 

Forge on...

I'm a blacksmith. What's your superpower?

 

 

[Charlotte]

I've repaired one anvil and have another to repair some day soon.  However,  when I look at the pic is can only say that I wish the anvil I want to repair was in that good shape. 

If it were mine I would use it with care and loving attention.  Really doesn't need repair.

[Charlotte]

One other thing,  you need a real welding machine not your home and farm cracker box. One of the downsides of small machines is maintaining interpass heat with out burning up the machine.  With big rods you may be down to 20 % on the duty cycle

[Frosty]

Maybe mythical isn't the right term but I never had any luck looking you guys up. I don't get to Homer very often but used to ask around, lots of folk said I should see the local bladesmith but couldn't tell me anything about how to make contact. I can't fault folk for not giving out contact info to strangers though and I didn't really make a pest of myself. I was just looking to talk to a smith I wasn't looking to buy a knife.

I never bought a knife from Irwin Campbell either but talked to him a couple times. I did buy his 50# Little Giant from his son Virgil a few years ago though. Nice hammer a little worn but smooth and solid.

Even knowing how to do build up and hardfacing on high carbon steel I avoid it like the plague, there's always a risk with an unknown high carbon steel base. I suppose a person could have a spectral analysis done on the face plate but most folk aren't interested in that kind of money. It leaves a guy with the rules of thumb and anecdotal experience of others to rebuild anvils.

I've only done it twice and was successful both times. However, the preheat, welding, grinding, post heating and slow cool did reveal a delaminated zone on the right corner of the step and I'd gone over it with a hammer several times evaluating it before accepting the project. I KNOW it didn't have that dead spot before I started working on it but it sure had one when I was finished.

Brian was up for a clinic summer before last I believe and I kind of shuddered the way he used the sharp edges and didn't miss the little trick of dressing them on a radiused edge. He'd isolate a section on a sharp edge, then shoulder over a radiused edge. It certainly allowed him much better accuracy and it works. I just can't bring myself to do it except in special cases and then I'm likely to use a chisel to mark for isolation.

It's what makes the craft an art, we all have techniques and foibles all our own. for all the years I've been doing this stuff I'm a hobbyist with rare lapses into black ink and don't make blades. I know the dance but don't hear the music so to speak. I've made a few, mostly special ones for my use and one for Dad at his insistence. The thing is though, I keep feeling the dark side calling. Pattern billets are whispering in my ear with voices of hard steel on a fine stone. I even have half a dozen primo blocks of: tiger eye, fiddle back, 1/4 sawn, various burls, etc. some spalted, some not, Myrtle I picked up in the early 90's to make handles.

But I continue to resist.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Frosty]

Something just occurred to me Mathew. Are Gordon and Karen your folks names?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Matthew D]

Frosty,

No, you must be thinking of someone else.  

[Frosty]

Frosty,

No, you must be thinking of someone else.  

I tend to think of Ninilchick as a suburb of Homer. They were snowbirds between here and Utah with a last name starting with D. and Gordon made knives. Parallel universe.

And I look at other people funny if they ask me if I know so and so because we both live in Alaska. Of course once in a while I do.

Have any good clam chowder recipes? I gave up digging razors when I discovered I could pick up cockles on the inside of the spit.

Frosty The Lucky.

[ironwolfforgeca]

that anvil can be repaired google Rod Gunther & read it do what he says use 1105 rod !!! 

with the right SHOP welder !! & know how to weld !! it take LOTS of time !!

I repair anvils all the time done over 65 + have 3 on the welding table right now PW lg - med -sm LOL it a family

search my name / post there Was some pics ???  of my work here somewhere here I repair weld them like Rod said

no problems no come backs & 8 of them are in smithing schools taking a beating by folk that are starting to learn

those I ck personally once a year !!! I repaired them a least 8 + years ago still in GOOD shape ! & they were in real bad shape then 

STEVE'S Welding & Fab