Cast or Forged?

[woodforge]

Greetings,

I am in the process of researching a book about Indian trade tomahawks & trade axes & was wondering if some of you blacksmith savy people could help out a rookie. I have seen thousands of eary trade axes & tomahawks & most of the time I can tell whether something is hand forged, or cast but sometimes I run across axes that seem to fit in-between a little. For example here (see pics) is an axe has a sunken in appearance to the iron. Now I can picture that happening in the casting process where the seams were neatly filed down & smoothed over or the forging process where the iron was not finished ssquare to the edge. So my question is are there any telltail signs or clues I can look for to tell me which it is? Naturally I have to deal with many fakes, frauds & reproductions as well as the authentic so any help would be much appreciated.








Thanks,
Woodforge

[Mende]

If an axe has marks that look like they were made by casting molds. ..they were probably made by drop forging them. .( when you heat something up . .and put in between 2 dies and apply tons of pressure) the excess metal runs out ..and has to be cut off and grinded smooth ..

usually some marks are left ..

But I doubt anyone would even consider casting axe heads. ..as it would be WAAAY more fuel efficient to just heat up metal and forge it.

So you either have drop forged/hand forged stuff from bad or good steel.

everyone . .please correct me if I'm wrong here. .

[HWooldridge]

The cast steel process was not widespread during the Indian trade heydays and cast iron would not hold an edge so I doubt very many were made that were intended for heavy use (other than maybe a war axe - which this one might be). Of course, cheap was the operative word on trade goods so maybe this one falls into the category.

Could this be an ice axe intended for "civilized" use?

[woodforge]

Hmm, when I was referring to cast I meant cast iron not steel which was used unfortunately to make a number of reproductions from the 1800's on. Of course the cast iron would be too brittle to be of use in real life & cast steel I had not even considered. There are really soooo many types of axes made to date that I've never seen a single book contain all the types & I have literally hundreds of books on axes.

Could it be an ice climbing axe? Possible but not likely. The earliest ice axes showed up around 1840's & did for short time have vertical blades & spikes but the handle is a bit short for that & there is no spike on the other end of the handle. Really the handle is way too long to be a tomahawk either. Try running with that 30" handle tucked in your belt! Course the handle could have been replaced decades ago too.

Of more interest to me though was not whether it is a period tomahawk or not, but whether it was hand forged or not.

I have another U.S. marked hatchet with very similar depressions. Does that mean it is hand forged or cast steel or....? I'm struggling to find more clues.

[rthibeau]

the photos do not give enough detail to tell one way or the other how they were made. do you have anything else to go by?

[woodforge]

Yeah, I'm afraid my pictures got shrunk when I uploaded them somehow. The surface of the metal is smooth, I mean no evidence of casting seams. About all I can tell you is it has a couple of large 1-2" long depressions & the thickness of the axe (on the top & the bottom of the axe head) where it looks like melted iron or steel sunk in a void. There is no indication of a seam within the depression either. I've only seen a few like this & it just has me mystified as to how it was made. If it was forged I can't imagine why it would do that.

[sdalcher]

An object like a tomahawk would be very difficult to cast as there are tapers going multiple directions. With that being said, the easiest way to tell a casting is the parting line where the two halves of the mold met. If there was good cleanup and finish this detail may be obscured and not evident. Second thing is to look at the profile, most early casting require a fair degree of draft or taper if you will to allow the original mold form to easily be withdrawn from the mold. So look for a design that has taper in only one direction. Also with casting, small crosssectional areas sometimes do not turn out so well, so look for a beefier/meatier design. While these thoughts are not a know all, be all and there are always exceptions, these geberal thoughts can identify most castings.

thanks
Steve

[HWooldridge]

The "void" may actually be the beginning of a cold shut. During forging, the material on the surface can flow faster than the material in the center of the mass. This is common with too light a hammer so happens more frequently with hand hammering but can also happen with a power hammer. I can't say more without hands-on inspection, but I think this axe was forged on a drop hammer or in some sort of progressive die set. If done in England, this could have been early 1800's forward.

Do you think this axe is pre-1800?

[woodforge]

That is very interesting! I didn't realize that kind of 'flowing action' could happen with forged iron or steel. I would say not pre-1800's & more likely mid 1800's or later but I say that based on the style/shape of it. It appears as thought the eye was punched out with something like a machine punch. the other hatchet I mentioined also appeared to have a punched out eye (not tapered inside like a drift or mandrel would leave it). A great many tomahawks were made in England & brought over here for the trade so that all makes good sense.

[Robert Mayo]

I would say it is post 1800 for sure it looks like it is drop forged and a specialized too.
These folks here will be able to give you the answers you are looking for.

ABOUT T.A.T.C.A.

[skunkriv]

TATCA-Cool site Robert, thanks.

[ThomasPowers]

Do you have some reason to think that that is the original handle? How long a handle some one has used quite a while after the fact doesn't seem to me to impact the original use at all.

The "sunken area looks like the start of a "birds mouth" cold shut from working the sides and not the edges, then cleaning up slightly on the edge with the hammer.

In general this type of thing would be forge welded from real wrought iron to make the eye and then have a steel bit forge welded in. Examination/testing for real wrought iron would be what I would look for. (Change in colour between the bit steel and the body WI would be a good start) Now if it was really cheap for fraudulant trade the entire thing might be WI.

n.b. even as late as the ACW steel could be 5 times more expensive than wrought iron and so the entire piece being made from steel is HIGHLY UNLIKELY!

[woodforge]

Hehe,well thanks for the advise but actually I was the one teaching the guy who started TATCA years before that began.

My questions were not about asking what this was but rather HOW it was made. For example, drop forging refers only to machine hammer forging? I've read conflicting things about drop forging & exactly what that means.

thanks,
woodforge

This post has been edited by the site admin.

[matt87]

Drop forging involves a power hammer. A plate called a progressive die is attached to the anvil face and the head face. This is somewhat like a mould, but instead of molten metal being poured into it, red-hot metal is placed on top of the bottom die and the hammer slams down, forging the metal into the cavities in both of the plates. Bang, one blow, one axe head. Repeat ad nauseum, all axe heads are identical (barring die wear). It's not blacksmithing of course, so it's evil ;)

[HWooldridge]

Drop forging normally has progressive stations so it's seldom "one hit-one axe". For example, this one would probably be one hit for the basic wedge, one hit to finish the shape and form the choil (I guess it's the same name as a knife?), one or two hits for the eye, one to trim the flash and maybe cutoff in the same lick. This would be done in one big die with all the stations OR on a couple of smaller hammers with reheats for each cycle.

[woodforge]

Ahh, thanks for info. I think I'm getting it.

So if something was drop forged it would not have problems with cold shut voids though would it? Or would it? I mean it should not have a lack of pressure being applied I would think.

Does anyone know when this drop forging began as a fairly regular industry?

[HWooldridge]

I probably shouldn't have used the term "one hit". A perfect hammer and die setup could be one hit at each station but it might also take multiple blows to reach complete die fill with a smaller machine.

As Thomas said, you could either inspect for dissimilar materials or spark test it but of course, some of the patina would be removed during the grinding. Not sure if this is a deal killer on axes - but I know collectors don't want anything changed on old guns or knives. It does not look like a wrought body to me but who can say?

[woodforge]

Hmm, interesting. There is no indication of a darker 'laid on' steel edge & all the metal looks the same other than those depressions I mentioned. Those depressions were the only indication I had it may be forged but now it looks like that is not necessarily so.

This spark test is new to me. Do you mean if it sparks (say on a piece of flint where it won't do too much damage) it is probably steel & not iron?

Thanks

[Glenn]

BP0020 Spark Testing

[woodforge]

Robert,

I would be careful with accepting everything on the TATCA website as fact. I would consider it all with a grain of salt & strongly consider getting other opinions. TATCA has some helpful information there but there are also mistakes. Such as the old ice harvesting axes from the 1888 Wm. T. Wood Ice harvesting catalog, the website claims may be misidentified in their own catalog & were probably tomahawks -- or the forged scythe handle parts found at dig sites that are referred to as tomahawks.

[BeaverDamForge]

If an axe has marks that look like they were made by casting molds. ..they were probably made by drop forging them. .( when you heat something up . .and put in between 2 dies and apply tons of pressure) the excess metal runs out ..and has to be cut off and grinded smooth ..

usually some marks are left ..

But I doubt anyone would even consider casting axe heads. ..as it would be WAAAY more fuel efficient to just heat up metal and forge it.

So you either have drop forged/hand forged stuff from bad or good steel.

everyone . .please correct me if I'm wrong here. .

I have a broadaxe marked "cast steel", I don't know if you'd call it a "reproduction" but it was certainly used. I have also seen cast steel chisels and slicks. Dad says it's good stuff (I was skeptical at first), he knows his tools pretty well.

Good Luck!

[ThomasPowers]

"Cast steel" was the material it was made from not the method it was made from. It is to seperate it from lower grade blister/shear steel and indicates that it was a higher quality crucible steel.

It is an artifact of the methods of making steel back then. So the "cast steel" axe could have very well been forged or dropforged to shape before stamping.

Thomas

[woodforge]

It is an artifact of the methods of making steel back then. So the "cast steel" axe could have very well been forged or dropforged to shape before stamping.

Thomas

Iyiyi, okay, let me see if I got this right. It sounds like the concensus among the majority of senior members is one MAY not really be able to tell just looking at an axe that it was forged, cast steel, drop forged or a combination of the forged & drop forged. Is that about right?

I understand how to look for seams, ridges or file marks where ridges were removed and looking also for the darker steel edges on iron. But in the abcense of ALL those clues it looks like there is no way to tell (lets skip the grinding/spark test--these are antiques). :)

[metalmangeler]

Drop forging involves a power hammer. A plate called a progressive die is attached to the anvil face and the head face. This is somewhat like a mould, but instead of molten metal being poured into it, red-hot metal is placed on top of the bottom die and the hammer slams down, forging the metal into the cavities in both of the plates. Bang, one blow, one axe head. Repeat ad nauseum, all axe heads are identical (barring die wear). It's not blacksmithing of course, so it's evil

Many of the blacksmithing books that I have include a section on dies of one type or another, it seems like a number of people here have powerhammers. Where exactly is the point that it stops being blacksmithing? I want to avoid the evil but get as close as possible(human nature).

[BeaverDamForge]

"Cast steel" was the material it was made from not the method it was made from. It is to seperate it from lower grade blister/shear steel and indicates that it was a higher quality crucible steel.

It is an artifact of the methods of making steel back then. So the "cast steel" axe could have very well been forged or dropforged to shape before stamping.

Thomas

I dug it out (next to the bottom of the box) and the eye looks welded, not cast. The "cast steel" is definately stamped (one punch, but it's not even or straight), which I wouldn't expect if it was a casting. The pitting has obscured any grinding marks, even on the edge, but this does seem to be a forging. Thanks!

Good Luck!

Edit - The regularity - smoothness and symmetry - would seem to indicate dies, not hand forging. Without looking at the inside of the eye I might think it was cast.