Scrambler82 Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Looking at an Anvil tomorrow. Says Peter Wright on the side. Anything I should look for ? It has the Forging Holes in the front and rear about mid section. Thks for any help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 take a ball bearing or small ball pein hammer and do a rebound test on the face. Depending on close to the starting height far the bearing or hammer returns tells you if the face is still hard and welded to the body. Look for dead areas if the face has good rebound. Occasionally small areas of the face will delaminate, possibly a poor weld to start or maybe abuse in the past. Dead areas or a dead face are a deal breaker. General condition shouldn't be too badly beaten up, dings and nicks are normal as are chipped edges, sometimes an entire edge will be chipped into a rough radius. Unless chips are so large they're actually pieces of the face broken out they can be dealt with. Lets see, bearing test. A decent face with only small digs. Edges can be chipped so long as they're not too large, say more than 1/2" back. Rust is nothing to worry about. Age is pretty much a non-issue but don't let him sell you on it being an antique. You aren't decorating the sitting room or garden you're buying a tool. I think that's it for what I look for. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluicebox Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Wish that I'd known that when I got my first PW. It was my first anvil actually. Delam baby. I'll post this pic for you. If it looks anything like this one, walk away. Good luck on the hunt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluicebox Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I know it doesn't look too bad but that's where that ball bearing or light hammer tap test comes in. This thing has two dead spots in it that comprise over 60% of the face plate. Broke my heart. I will repair it someday but for now I like to look at it as a reminder to do my homework and really check things out first before paying for them. The guy that sold it to me said that it was "cherry and worked awesome". Nearly 400 mile round trip and I brought it home not knowing any better. I really hope you do better and get an awesome one. Please post an update as I would love to hear and see how you did. I have a dedicated place in my heart for Old Peter Wright Anvils. You can tell in the above pics that it has been crushed by a heavy hammer. Your anvil can have dings and such on the body but the top plate HAS to have good action and give a lively rebound. Look hard for cracks in the plate, also where the horn attaches to the body as well as the tail. A Peter Wright should ring when struck if it's not bolted down or muffled with chain. Try to do a sounding (ring) on it with the owners permission. Make sure that there are no tools in the Hardy hole or Pritchel hole. If you can't find a ball bearing then take a small ball ping hammer with you. Lightly tap the tail and the horn, should ring. Then gently hold hammer about 6" above top plate and let the hammer swing on it's own to strike the top of the anvil. A good or great Peter Wright will give you 80% rebound. Try this all over the face plate, you should hear a high pitched ring or ping that is good. A thunk or hollow sound is bad. Hope this helps you, some may disagree with my test but that test right there would have saved me some serious coin when I couldn't afford to waste it.4th and 5th photos above are of a very decent Peter Wright for contrast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Wish that I'd known that when I got my first PW. It was my first anvil actually. Delam baby. I'll post this pic for you. If it looks anything like this one, walk away. Good luck on the hunt. I am sorry you did not get what you thought you paid for, but did you find that the de-lamitation of your Peter Wright actually made it unusable? Given the varying weights and therefore varying contribution that any anvil makes to the process, I am surprised that reduced rebound renders any anvil useless. Marginally less effective relative to its weight perhaps. I am always intrigued by the great reverence that is accorded to the rebound test on IFI given the myriad of other parameters involved with hand forging efficiency. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluicebox Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I am sorry you did not get what you thought you paid for, but did you find that the de-lamitation of your Peter Wright actually made it unusable? Given the varying weights and therefore varying contribution that any anvil makes to the process, I am surprised that reduced rebound renders any anvil useless. Marginally less effective relative to its weight perhaps. I am always intrigued by the great reverence that is accorded to the rebound test on IFI given the myriad of other parameters involved with hand forging efficiency. AlanI never tried to use it as I was afraid I would only make it worse. I have too much respect for it to ignore that it has issues needing addressed before use. I'm no expert nor did I ever claim to be one. I screwed up when I bought mine and was only trying to save someone else from the same mistake. Though it is only a tool one would think that at an average of $4-5 per pound now days one should look for quality. Given the choice of hammering on a delaminated anvil or a flat rock, I would use the anvil. I was pretty bummed out shelling out a significant amount of cash for an anvil with serious issues. If you would like to swing the hammer harder to accomplish the same task than have at her, enjoy lack of rebound. If you want to shell out $500 for a 100 lb anvil with a delamed top plate and use it for two weeks and have the top finish coming off, by all means enjoy yourself. I look for anvils that will provide me years of service and will also be something that I can proudly pass on to my heirs. Not at all trying to be rude here with you, but I have seen many anvil lately that are in need of serious repairs. These are being sold to newbies like myself who don't know any better and buy the first thing that comes along. I will continue to read the old posts in this forum and maybe next time I offer advice I will know what I'm talking about. Good day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The rebound test is good for catching anvils that have been through a fire and had the face detempered. Sure you can use a soft anvil but do you pay full price for a car that's been in an accident even if it's now "hidden"? As for folks selling something: most folks are clueless about anvils; can't tell an Arm&Hammer from a Vulcan and will tell you that the Vulcan is as good an anvil as the A&H. (Vulcans were pretty much to lowest quality tier for real anvils and A&H are in the top tier). I personally don't get the "I don't know nothing so I'll just tell stuff as truth that isn't." But it is common out there; (especially videos on the internet...) Caveat Emptor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 No, an anvil with a delaminated faceplate is not useless. It is however very much diminished in it's ability to move metal well. If anyone wants an example try duct taping a piece of 1/2" plate to their anvil face and give it a try. That will be an extreme example but not unrealistically so. The rebound test is popular because it works. It's a near perfect example of an effective, quick, easy, and unarguable procedure becoming the field test de rigueur. The ring test is unreliable in it doesn't always apply, a Fisher for example does NOT ring but can indeed be suffering from damage that makes it an ineffective anvil, fire damage for example. The rebound test also has the benefit of being easy to explain to anybody. I've never met a seller who would argue against bouncing a ball bearing or a small ball pein off an anvil. We're not taking a mighty swing at it, a 6" free fall with even a 2lb. hammer isn't going to damage an anvil. If it does, the anvil fails walk away. I'm always eager to add to the tools in my mental kit so what are the other parameters? What parameter make a good face on an anvil unimportant? I'm seriously interested. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Well…I was actually trying to help Sluicebox feel a bit better about his purchase funnily enough, although it does not seem to have worked out quite that way. :( …I had no intention to demean or irritate you Sluicebox, honest. To answer your particular case though I would certainly carry on using the anvil, you will not make it any less repairable. If the plate comes off then you can rebuild it. If it doesn't come off then win! win! If you are going to eventually reface it you have got to get the plate off somehow, why not through getting some use out of it? I obviously have no preference to use a delaminated faced anvil. My point was that the amount of energy lost in flexing a 20mm plate of tool steel which is not completely attached is minimal when you consider the other elements that comprise an efficient forging process. I don't see how it is "very much diminished". The rebound test is, as you say Frosty, a very quick and easy demonstration of the hardness and soundness of the anvil face. My point is that a soft faced or partially delaminated anvil is not the end of the world. I am sure that the one that Sluicebox acquired will still be more effective in its current condition than any one made from a length of railway line, and indeed I would prefer it to a high rebounding Peter Wright of half the size/weight. The mass is what counts I think. Plain mild steel would serve perfectly well. True, mild steel would absorb some of the energy and deform and wear over years, but not in minutes, nor so rapidly that you would notice the lack of forging progress/efficiency. When you consider that you are hitting a piece of soft hot steel against the surface of your anvil there is little rebound involved from the anvil face…hopefully, unless you miss. :( If the hardness was for any reason other than wear resistance the beak would also be hardened…. Or the beak would be useless for forging because there is no rebound? I have an old 600lb anvil which has a very soft face, but it is brilliant especially with larger stock and when working with a couple of strikers. I used it as my main hand forging anvil for a few years with no problems due to the softness. The only thing I did not like about it was the extreme width of the face. I suppose I was conditioned to a conventional 300lb proportion and size, and resented the need to unlearn that in order to address the larger dimension. Although you have credited me with an attitude I do not hold…I did not say that a good anvil face was unimportant…I just do not believe it is by any means the major factor in forging efficiency. As far as the other parameters go...I will not list every nuance of my forging experience because it will take too long. :) The physical elements however I can list... I stand by my argument that the anvil face is just one element of the equation; I have already mentioned the anvil's mass, there is the solidity of the stand and the ground that the stand sits on; the workpiece, its temperature, the angle and the steadiness with which it is held, the appropriateness of the hand hammer face for the form desired, the weight of the hand hammer relative to the workpiece and the smith, the length of its handle, the grip and the hammer control; the stance, comfort, knowledge, experience, energy and enthusiasm of the smith; and ever outwards to the lighting and the heating of the shop the weather outside and etc. They are all elements which have a bearing upon the efficiency of the forging process, to my mind most of them have significantly more effect than whether the anvil face has a 60% or 80% rebound….but you didn't really need me to spell it out did you? :) Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Some of the older PWs (I think pre-1885) had a 2 part faceplate, so there might be a seam across the face at some point. Not to worry- just do the ping or ball bearing test on both sides of the 'crack'. If it passes, the seam is still sound. If you get different sounds or rebound across the crack, watch out. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I do a lot of forging with my travel set; good anvils but generally in the 100# range; I am always amazed when I get back to my real shop and can do a project with the main shop anvil---about 5 x larger. However I can tell the difference working on a mild steel "improvised" anvil vs a hardened one---though not so much when working real wrought iron at welding heats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I wasn't trying to start anything Alan, I was under the impression you felt there were factors as or more important than a sound face to consider when evaluating an anvil. I wasn't referring to efficiently smithing, the subject was the anvil face itself. Mass that isn't connected to the contact surface doesn't count nearly as much. A sound 100lb. anvil is certainly a more efficient anvil than one 5x as heavy with a delaminated face. This is from personal experience not just opinion. And NO a delaminated face doesn't make an anvil useless. If I said that, please accept my apologies, I mispoke it isn't my position at all. Like I said, I have no intention of making a thing about a difference of opinion or perhaps just misread statement so I'll be leaving this thread lay now. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 There are no absolutes apart from 'death and taxes' I agree…can't refer to shades of grey nowadays without it having an extra meaning :( I have just received an email informing me that the big Ypres event website has gone on line http://www.ypres2016.com so we can all gather round an anvil (whether delaminated or sound) and bounce our wine glasses of it in 2016! Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambler82 Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Thks for your comments. I guess I thought the PW was a forged unit, there are square holes on both ends; we will see Saturday. I am paying a little more than a wanted to but I lost three other because of price, hoping this one will be the Big Bang. Top appears straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 PW is forged from wrought iron, with a tool steel top forge-welded on top. The square hole on the sides are handling holes, to insert a square bar to hold/maneuver the anvil during the forging process. That looks like a real nice anvil- it won't let you down. It won't let your grandchildren down either. Get it, and start polishing it with hot steel. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambler82 Posted February 6, 2015 Author Share Posted February 6, 2015 Thanks Steve, picking it up on Saturday unless it goes real bad on the hammer test. LTR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sluicebox Posted February 6, 2015 Share Posted February 6, 2015 I'm real sure that one will pass any test you give it. I had no idea that it was in such great shape. That's a getter and a keeper for sure. Nice anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambler82 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 Ok guys, went to check out and buy the anvil. We rolled it out of the corner, it is on an old block and with a clamp that is nice. Notice the clamping is threaded rods attached to an angle iron base. Anyway... I took a 3 lb hammer with me, took it out and hit the side of the horn and tail and wham I bam... thud, thud, thud. What is this ! Dropped the hammer on the top middle and thud, man does this sound like $hit. The guy wanted to know what was wrong, I told him it sounds like it is worn out but there is no wear to prove it. I thought unless the base is absorbing the sound, I asked if we could undo the clamping. He agreed and a struck again with the hammer... Silence... It rang like a bell, both end and the top. The hammer recoiled almost 100% of the drop and the 1" ball bearing make the whole trip... ! As far as I am concerned it is a winner plus and I lucked out. I asked about where it came from, the seller responded from his father, my first thought was his dad must have past and he was selling everything but it turns out his dad got it five or so years back from where he worked and it was in a corner not being used AND they were going to throw it out, man do you believe it. So what I think I got is an anvil that has been stored in a corner of a shop not being used for who knows how long. I am smiling to say the least. The side of the anvil say," Peter Wright, Patented". There is a ring of letters that are a little hard to read and then "1 1 22" which I think is the weight of 162 lbs. The wooden base, a squared off tree trunk, has a "56" stamped in it with someone's initials scratched in next to it, not sure if this means the base was attached in 1956 or what but I will look over the base before reattaching the anvil and write down anything I see. So thanks to all for the advice, thanks for the support from this site... I missed out on a few other anvil because I didn't want to pay the price but this time I got a good deal and I think an excellent anvil. Good comes to those who wait, thank you God. Any input would be appreciated. I will repost the pictures for those like me who don't want to reread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambler82 Posted February 7, 2015 Author Share Posted February 7, 2015 The picture kind of show a dip in the top but it is straight, I used a 3' square to check. The stand took all the ringing away, that surprised me. I think the hold down is a great idea, it would a ashame to separate the stand from the anvil but I may have appease the wife with a token repurposed piece of wood. I have wanted to build one of the 2x12 stands since I first rear about the build so I really won't be unhappy. Sluice box, Thks for the input, I used your ideas for the first check out, got disappointed in the sound BUT THEN the ring came and wow I was a happy hunter. As I said up a sentence or two, the stand removed all the noise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambler82 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Took a closer look at the stand I got with the Anvil. The year thing may or may not be a year after all. It has the "56" but after it there is what I thought was initials but the letters indicate "yrs", so the whole thing is saying "56years", the yrs could have been added later on but who knows. There are no markings on the stand other than the 56. Here is a picture of the top showing not only the markings but also that the stand is made from the center of a tree, sweet. Here is a picture of the clamping device, angle iron around the bottom with EOS welded to wraps, welded to the angle iron. Then there are other angle pieces across the anvil bolted to the rods. Ok back to the Anvil, the side markings, the PW is there and then a circle of letters is the "Solid Wrought ", then the weight. There is a stamped in #160 but I think that had to e added later on, not sure when. No other lettering on the anvil but there is a double star on one foot. Sorry tried to flip the picture, keeps coming out upside down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambler82 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Next is the base, there is a portion of the feet on either side that looks like it was designed for a clamp of some sort. The angle iron used by this stand uses this "step" to lock the anvil down. Can anyone tell me two things, one is this a normal PW foot and two is it an indicator of the year of manufacturer. Oh Ya, last but not least, the top of the anvil has a slight dip on the left side, lookin from the rear. Right side is flat, left is dipped approximately 1/16" to 3/32", doesn't seems bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambler82 Posted February 9, 2015 Author Share Posted February 9, 2015 Does anyone know the year of manufacture of this anvil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Evans Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 You wil find the dipped area very useful for straightening bars. It allows for a bit of over bending and springback. My anvil is very similar. I would hate a flat new anvil, it has half the possibilities...The soft mouth of the hardy hole can also be used for tighter curves on smaller stock. Like any other forging tools, avoiding sharp edges means no folds and cracks and the reduced bruising which keeps the work piece form fresh and clean. Looks like a great anvil, well done. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stash Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 If it says England on it, it is post 1910. I'm guessing it is in the 1885-1910 range. Pre-1885 has always struck me as a little blockier. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrambler82 Posted February 10, 2015 Author Share Posted February 10, 2015 You wil find the dipped area very useful for straightening bars. It allows for a bit of over bending and springback. My anvil is very similar. I would hate a flat new anvil, it has half the possibilities...The soft mouth of the hardy hole can also be used for tighter curves on smaller stock. Like any other forging tools, avoiding sharp edges means no folds and cracks and the reduced bruising which keeps the work piece form fresh and clean. Looks like a great anvil, well done. Alan Thks, I thought it was just the pictures, I checked it at the sellers site and didn't see the dip. Got it home and looked closer and there is was. I am hopping for a lot of,use from her. If it says England on it, it is post 1910. I'm guessing it is in the 1885-1910 range. Pre-1885 has always struck me as a little blockier. Steve Doesn't say England, but I read without England puts it in a range of pre 1988. I am a novice/noob on anything Blacksmith I am just quoting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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