Tig welder brands????

[FieryFurnace]

So I'm looking at Tig welders.

 

I want an AC/DC machine capable of welding up to 3/16-inch stainless and aluminum. If it welds bigger, fine, but 3/16-inch capable would be fine. A stick/tig combo unit would be great, but tig is what I'm after primarily. 

 

The only name brands I'm familiar with are Miller and Lincoln. In any given fab shop I've walked in, those are the two brands you see lining the walls. 

 

What about some other name brands? I've never even heard of some of these. Are they junk, pretty good, OK, or should I just stick with Lincoln and Miller?

 

Eastwood

Everlast

Thermal Arc

Longevity 

Hobart

 

Good, bad, ugly? 

[SoCal Dave]

One of the problems I see is my Thermal Arc AC/DC Inverter is 15 years old.  It has been a great Tig machine for me but I can't vouch for their new models.  I would suggest contacting a welding school and see what types of machines they have and how they hold up.  A company that has been around for some time indicates they most likely make quality machines, not like the chinese made kind. Good luck in your search.    

[DSW]

The current Hobart tig machine is simply a copy of Millers Diversion 165 and is underpowered for 3/16" alum. The torch is also fixed and isn't easily upgradable. Personally I think you give up too much on these machines for what they want for one. I'd wouldn't suggest one to many people. Older used industrial Hobarts back before the company was broken up and ITW acquired the lower end machines aren't bad, but parts are tough to locate if you have any problems.

 

Longevity / AHP / Everlast all have had major issues in the past with machines blowing up. The newer machines may be better, but the way those companies treat their customers when there are issues leaves a lot to be desired. Harassment, strong arm tactics, giving people the run around are some of the lesser offenses when dealing with customers who have had machine issues. Note that Everlast and Longevity have a history of using their Mod powers for editing and deleting posts of customer issues on another site to hide these problems. They did this so a search won't easily show their bad reputation, machine issues and so on. They also have a past history of buying good reviews from owners buy bribing them with consumables and having company personnel pose as customers and write reviews. Use do diligence and really research the history of these companies before you buy. AHP is owned and operated by the exact same people who own Everlast. They try to hide this fact to distance themselves from Everlasts reputation, but they play the same poor customer service tricks Everlast does. No big surprise since most of the people are the same. ( There's a lot more to this story but this is the short version if you want more, PM me)

 

Eastwood has a better reputation for dealing fairly with customers over the years as far as their car stuff is concerned. However the reports I've read on their machines performance has been spotty at best.

 

Keep in mind none of these machines from Everlast / AHP / Longevity / Eastwoods and so on that are imported are well supported service wise. If it breaks out of warranty ( and many have had an issue doing so in the past) you will not be able to locate components, service manuals and so on. Most repair centers won't touch them for this reason, plus the fact many times that the repair cost will exceed what it would cost to replace one with another import. Almost all these importers swap out defective machines, and usually you have to pay to return them on your dime. If you go with one, treat it as disposable if it fails out of warranty.

 

 

Thermal Arc is now owned by Victor/Tweeco/Thermadyne. History on the older TA 185's was very good. The newer TA 186's and other machines don't have quite the same reputation, but are quite good from many of the guys I know who own them. They are making big inroads in the newer Mig/tig/stick multi process machines in some cases exceeding the output of similar small Miller machines like the Multimatic 200 where the TA version goes up to 200 amps in tig, where the Miller unit tops out at only 150 amps.

 

Esab has a good reputation but machines can be hard to find in many places. Kempi is another good company that isn't seen much in the US but is seen in Oz and overseas fairly regularly.

 

 

Don't rule out older industrial machines. I've seen plenty of the older Miller 330 AB/P's and the remarked units sold by Airco go dirt cheap. $450-800 is typical of the 330's and I've seen the Airco units as low as $250. Older Dialarc HF's are another good solid AC/DC tig As well as the Lincoln Idealarc tigs. Any of those would have more than enough power to run 3/16" alum if you can feed them enough power from the panel. I know quite a few guys who swear by the older 330's and won't use anything else.

 

I've also seen any number of used Miller Syncrowaves for decent prices. A Syncrowave 200 would be maxed out on 3/16" alum, and you'd most likely want a water cooled torch vs the 17 series air cooled one that comes with it if you do any serious amount with the machine maxed like that. The Syncro 250 would be a good choice. A few more options and adjustments than the older Millers like the 330's, but they cost more. I've seen them as low as $1200, but $1500+ is more typical. I have a Syncrowave 200 myself at the house and run Syncro 250's at the tech school.

 

Be aware Miller Dynasty's are a frequent scam item on CL/Ebay. If the deal looks too good to be true, it probably is either a scam, or hot. They are great machines however and are pretty much top of the line. If adjusted right a Dynasty 200 will do 3/16" alum, but you'll need to play with the advanced settings to optimize the arc to do so. Any of the bigger Dynasty's will do 3/16" no problem with the factory settings.

[jmccustomknives]

I cannot add anything to what DSW has said, he knows his machines, other than esab is now owned by the victor group and a lot of that groups equipment is being consolidated.  Esab is even discontinuing the Purox and Oxweld torch lines and as of this time I haven't heard about the other machines but I'm sure that's coming.  Go with Miller or Lincoln, both have a great reputation and stand by their product.  And buy from a local welding supplier who can be there if you have issues because if you do have problems or need help that's where you'll be sent.

[FieryFurnace]

THAN YOU SOOOOOOO MUCH DSW!

You just gave me what a week's worth of study and online research failed to. I know that stuff takes a while to type out, and I really appreciate you taking the time. Like REALLY!


I'm looking at an older Miller 180sd with cart, torch, and leads. The guy is asking $1500, but I'm having a hard time justifying that when I can get a bran new Miller 165 tig welder off of ebay for around $1800. Plus, a lighter machine is appealing as I will be using the machine to fab boat parts.....so I may need to move around a bit.

I also ran into a guy at the steel yard yesterday with a Lincoln 175 tig/stick machine, but he is undecided about selling.

Once again, thanks for all of the info....it really helps focus my search!

[kubiack]

Just to add to what DSW said on older industrial units especially the 330 AB/P and the Dialarc HF. The foot peddle for these two machines is very expensive so you need to make sure that it comes with one and that it works. On newer machined the foot peddle sends a single to a circuit board and the welder controls the amperage. On many of the older machines the foot peddle itself controls the amperage. You can usually tell this type because the foot peddle has two large wires connecting it to the machine instead of just on small wire. I know I had to pass on a few of these as they were missing the foot peddle and it was going to cost more than the machine to replace them. I did end up finding a Miller 330 ST Aircrafter in good condition.

[2ballcain357]

Fiery, just be aware of the duty cycle on those machines....I have a miller diversion 180..I love it don't get me wrong but the smaller machines do have some down falls. The difference between the 165 and 189 is not much.. If I remember correctly the main difference is the ability to run off 110 or 220. The 180 can run both with an included adapter and I do not believe the 165 can. Also beware you will have no control over your post flow and pre flow...I wish I would have asked more questions before I purchaaed mine because I have wasted a lot of argon.. The post flow is determined by the amps you set. You can somewhat combat this issue with a gas lense,

They are nice machines and weld very well.. They come stock with a size 17 torch that is bulky but can easily be switched out for a 9. Also comes with a 12' lead that can be switched as well I.e. Longer.

I weld a fair amount of aluminum and stainless with this and I push its limits...a lot of waiting on the machine and torch to cool... Just my .02

[2ballcain357]

Also DSW hit all of that on the head of the nail....I would stick (no pun intended) with miller or Lincoln.. I'm a blue man myself but have tried the red... All in all most machines weld the same once they are dialed in correctly.. I think it really boils down to your current and future needs. Never hurts to plan for the future...try to not buy for what you need today but what you will need tomorrow.. I know I am quickly out growing the smaller machine and wish I would have waited and went a little bigger. Also in my opinion the ability to add a water cooler is a big to do.. For comfort and to extend the life of your consumables and torch

[DSW]

No problem. Glad I can help. I get asked all the time by students at the tech school what machines to be on the lookout for, so I keep tract of stuff like this semi regularly. Lincoln machines I'm not as familiar with as far as models and so on. For what ever reason around me they just don't appear often. It's only in the last year or so my LWS started stocking a few Lincolns. Maybe it's because Miller managed to get in with most of the tech schools in the area and guys are used to using Millers, so look for them when buying. The Lincoln machines I have used, like to old round top Idealarc stick machines, are top notch though and I wouldn't be afraid of buying their stuff.

 

Syncrowave 180 is a nice machine. I originally learn to tig on one. A lot better than the Diversions in my opinion, but still underpowered for 3/16" alum. $1500 is way too much for one though. I've seen them as low as $800 and $1200 is usually tops with a cylinder. $1500 on the high end of what I'd pay for a Syncrowave 200, and it would have to come with a bunch of extras like a cylinder or water cooler to make me look hard at one.

 

The new Syncrowave 210's aren't all that much more money, and you get a lot more options to work with. I have yet to run one of the new Syncrowave 210's but I've heard they are nicer than the older 200's were and that's saying a lot as the 200's are very nice machines.

 

Don't buy into the Diversion 180 being able to weld on 110v power. It can, but you won't be able to do anything but really thin alum. IIRC it tops out at around 100 amps output on 110v power. The Diversion 165 and Diversion 180 are both rated at the same duty cycle at 165 amps IIRC at 180 amps, the Diversion 180's duty cycle is minimal, something like 5% at best and you only reach that on 230v power.

 

 

A quick browse thru the Cl listings in your area didn't pull up anything super used that stood out.

 

 

I don't know how familiar you are with tig so I'll add this. Alum tig needs a fair amount of power since alum is such a good heat sink. 200 amps is borderline to do 3/16" on my Syncrowave 200. I'd rather have another 20-25 amps available to start the puddle faster in  certain joint configurations. At the tech school we set the machines at 150 amps AC for 1/8" alum with the students, but I usually tend to set the machine for myself an 180-200 amps to get the puddle started faster and then quickly back off the pedal. With 3/16" It takes a bit to get the puddle to flow the way I prefer with only 200 amps available. Stainless and steel on the other hand don't need as many amps as they don't wick the heat away from the puddle as efficiently as alum does. Good rule of thumb is 1 amp per .001" for steel/stainless and add 20% to that for alum. Above 3/16" that rule begins to break down some.

[2ballcain357]

DSW, just fyi I wasent trying to say that the diversion 180 could weld the same at 110 as it does 220.... Was just trying to state the big difference between the two. Also miller does not sell on that fact either. The manual that comes with the machine and the spec sheet state the amp output at both 110 and 220... Sorry to you and fiery if what I sad was taken that way did not mean for it to sound like that. Also if I am not mistake I believe miller has stopped making the 165 due to the sales of them compared to the 180

[DSW]

I wasn't referring to anything you said about the Diversions.

 

I just see a lot of guys who see the 110v option and think that they can weld up to the max of 180 amps on 110v power. They don't read the fine print in the manual on the machines. Actually Miller lists a lot higher output on 110v power than most can get using typical outlets. I forget the specs on the Diversion 180 off the top of my head, but the Dynasty 200 only makes it's maximum possible 110v output ( 150 amps IIRC) if you feed it something like 30 or 33 amps of 110v power. Not something the average home is equipped to provide. Most older homes don't even have outlets on 20 amp breakers, only 15 amp circuits, and those usually have other items drawing on the same circuit.

 

 

I just hate to see guys who don't know better who get suckered into buying that machine because they want a machine that can be run on 110v power. Many sales guys won't tell the buyer that they only end up with a usable output of something like 100 amps on 110v, That makes them pretty much useless for guys who buy that machine because they want the option to do 1/8" alum. When the buyer finds out they need a 230v circuit to use the machine, they often are a bit upset because they expected it to do everything on 110v power. I see the same thing to a limited extent with the dual voltage migs like the Millermatic 211 as well, but most forums do a fair job of educating new guys that they shouldn't expect any more from those dual voltage machines than they would get out of any other 110v mig when running off 110v power.

 

 

Doesn't surprise me Miller would drop the Diversion 165. There isn't really any advantage to it other than price as the 180 pretty much mirrored the output and had the advantage of being dual voltage. They dropped the Passport mig as soon as the Multimatic 200 came out as it pretty much combined the mig capability of the Passport with the stick/tig ability of the Maxstar 150.

[FieryFurnace]

I've been keeping a sharp eye on Craig's! I'm going to throw out some local inquiries and see what it turns up.

[HWooldridge]

I have an older Synchrowave 250 built in the early '90's with both TIG and stick setups - I wouldn't trade it for any newer machine and it's a great rig for anything I can throw at it. DSW's comments on aluminum are spot on about current draw so make sure you buy enough size - similar to the problem of people being disappointed trying for spray-arc with an undersized MIG.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

My go to TIG is my Linde UCC-305. I picked it up for $250 at an auction with a radiator. Added a foot control for $160, and a new Weldcraft torch. It is a big machine, weighing in at 1,000 pounds, but it is 100% duty rated, and works fantastic. A friend recently gave me a new 500 amp Weldcraft water cooled torch. Thicker aluminum will no longer be a problem.

I also picked up a used Miller Dialarc HF 200? I am loaning it to a friend at the moment, and can't remember the exact model. It works good, but I love my Linde.

Always go bigger than you think on items like welders and air compressors. Bigger machines won't be straining when used.

[FieryFurnace]

Here is a Linde! Seller seems to think everything is there. 

I'd prefer a more portable unit, but it's something to think about I guess. 

http://louisville.craigslist.org/tls/4844424343.html

[DSW]

Check your PM's.

 

There isn't a pict attached so I can't comment on condition and so on. Some of the Linde stuff was made by other companies IIRC, but I don't know enough about them to comment on them unless I can recognize the unit from picts. They were a good brand, though parts for older units may be hard to find. Price is in the higher end of fair for an older tranny type tig machine if everything is there and works.

 

Note to do 3/16" alum, you either will have to shell out BIG bucks for an inverter like a Dynasty 200, or you are going to end up with a moderately large machine. The newer Syncrowave 210's are about the size of a medium sized floor model cabinet mig. That's about as "small" as you are going to get in the sub $2500 range. My Syncrowave 200 is about 2x that size, and about 2-3 times the weight. That's a "small" transformer tig machine. Stuff like the 330's are about the size of a small refrigerator and weight about 900 pounds. Up side is because they are big heavy and clunky, they go dirt cheap many times. The Sycrowave 250's fall some where in between size/weight wise.

 

 

Smaller tigs like the old Ecconotigs and Tigmates and so on don't really have the power to do much over 1/8" alum.

[ianinsa]

You will never regret having a 330AB/P old but will weld virtually anything and just keep on going(needs a decent trolley though). For me the only downside is that its a bit power hungry even on 3Ph 380v. I also have modern inverter type welders with pulse technology, yes smaller, quicker and better but for a whole heap more cash and then still 60kg ( not exactly my version of portable) if you want portable get a small 160amp dc inverter(you'll be amazed at just how capable they are)  

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

If it isn't too far from you I would check that Linde out. Especially if it is a UCC-305, and you can take it for a test run. Call to see if it has the radiator, foot control, and what size torch. He may also throw in some extras like consumables, rods, leads, etc if he is clearing out the shop.

They also make excellent stick welders.

I have had mine for almost 30 years ,and the only thing I have had to do to it is adjust the points for the high frequency.

[arftist]

Linde was absolute top quality along with ESAB.

Be that as it may, part may indeed be difficult to locate for old machine of any brand. 

 

FYI a diversion can barely weld 3/16 aluminum, and what are you going to tell the fellow with the big job who wants it all built out of 1/4"? 

 

Best all around? New Lincoln

Best value, new Thermal Arc. 

[nuge]

I have been running a thermal arc TA 185 for the last 8 years. Use it every day (99.9%tig) it's my go to welder. Lots if bang for the $.

[petere76]

Dave,

 

I see where you are looking for portability, stick and TIG capabilities.  I'll assume that you are running a 220 circuit in your shop.  The good new set up for your needs would be a Lincoln TIG 225 with the auxiliary equipment package. Its not a 24/7 production welder but it looks to be a good shop package.  It will run between 5A and 220 A with a max DC output of 75V. You would have to check on the duty cycle of the specific Model you want. The advantage to the 225 is that it is capable of bigger jobs and you can upgrade it without buying another machine. I saw where the local gas supplier here in Maine had these on sale with the equipment package for about 1500 USD. If you just buy a smaller machine at a bargain price, then outfit it with all the accessories, you wind up spending more and getting less in the long run.  See if the local welding supply in your area is running any Lincoln specials and find out what they can do for you.  Let us know what you wind up with.

 

Peter

[FieryFurnace]

I have a brand new Miller Sycrowave 210 on the way. It includes the leads, gas gauge, foot control, multi-plug, etc.
I typically buy used because it's cheaper, but knowing little about these machines I figured buying new would be on the safe side.
This way I know everything is there and in working order. What happens from there is what I wonder about. :)

[SoCal Dave]

There is nothing like a new toy.  Practice welding all kinds of welds for fun.  Learn about your machine.  Tig welding is so cool.  

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

New does have some advantages. Once you have some knowledge on how they are supposed to operate it helps make better decisions when buying used.



My only hesitation on the new rigs are the electronics/software some use. I have seen the electronics get hinky where they cannot be used, and the repairs can be steep. I currently have a Lincoln Mig that needs to be serviced. Sometimes simple is good :-)

Man, if I was closer I would be all over that Linde..I wouldn't mind another one. I used to travel to Shepherdsville twice a year for the Knob Creek machine gun shoot, but not anymore. Oh well. You may want yo grab it too if you can swing it. They are fantastic stick welders, very smooth.

[Hillbillysmith]

I'm a welder by profession, that's all I do. Stick, Mig, Tig, Flux core, Oxy fuel, Brazing, you name it. I've held dozens of certs. AWS D1.1/ D1.3/ D17.1, ASME section 9, several processes on several types of material.... With that said, I am a die hard Lincoln/Miller fan but yet I have an AHP AlphaTig 200X and I love it! I only got this machine because it came my way brand new at a dirt cheap price so I got it to test it out and I'm thoroughly impressed with its performance! I'm actual ashamed to admit that I own such an abomination. lol. I have used and abused this machine like it was a rented dynasty! haha.

 

All joking aside, this would seriously be a fantastic machine for the garage/hobbyist user especially for the price. There are two things that I would (and I already have) definitely replace is the flowmeter (Smith 300 for a replacement) and the torch. An adaptor is required to attach any typical air-cooled torch 9/17/26.I personally like CK brand torch accessories made by CK Worldwide and they are the manufacturer of the adaptors needed for this machine. A CK-9 style torch is rated for 125 amps, CK-17 style torch is rated for 150 amps, and the CK-26 torch is 200 amp rated all with a 100% duty cycle. I picked up a 26 style torch with 25' lead off amazon.com for $40. You can pick up 17 type torches for $40-$50 off amazon all day which is cheaper than the $175-$190 you'll pay at the welding supplier.

 

Now, to get the adaptors: the adaptor to connect a 9 or a 17 type torch is the same (CK part # SL-2 M16) and you can get it from Weld.com for $64.50. The website takes PayPal only as a form of payment. I had to go through my welding supplier to get the adaptor for the 26 type torch (CK part # SL-8 M16). I have personally welded a fair amount of 1/2" thick aluminum with it and it performed quite well. The new 2015 model comes with AC frequency adjustment which is what I wished my 2014 model had.

 

-Hillbilly