Anyone forging button hooks?

[Shainarue]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm referring to. When I look online for examples without turned wood, all I'm finding are single wire designs where the hook and handle are all one piece... Like squiggle line art ish. 

Ashley likes the few ideas of line art I showed her but she also wants a few of the loop variety. These have a handle (wood is all I'm finding) and a very thin flexible piece of wire or heavy nylon like fishing line. And it you pull the end of the handle to close the loop around the yarn. Now I'm trying to figure out how to make a metal handle that would be able to function like that... 

In regards to your wire suggestion, do you think the spring would work? I'd guess it's about the same diameter as "middle tones" piano wire, if not a bit smaller. 

Can you share pics of some of the metal and wire handled ones you've made? 

[Frosty]

Hmmmm, I make orifice hooks from some 0.045" stainless steel tig wire I picked up somewhere. Before that I used gas welding rod about the same dia. I forged a couple on request but it was a major PITA drawing medium carbon steel that small without burning or splintering it and I couldn't see charging a fair rate so only did a few. 

What you're describing sounds like a snake capture / snare stick (I don't recall what they're actually called) basically a soft rope noose on a stick you draw closed by pulling the free end of the line. I've seen pro versions that drew through a hollow handle.  I've never seen or heard of an orifice hook like that.

How long a wood handle are you looking for?  The spinners I know have all kinds of beads, loops, macramé and bangle doo dads on their orifice hooks. Deb likes a simple loop on the ends of hers and uses a little spring clamp with a magnet to hang it on her wheel. She clamps the magnet to the wheel and sticks the hook to the magnet.

I'd check in craft and hobby stores for wood beads you think might work. 

I looked at a couple pages of spinning wheel orifice hooks and wheel hooks online and see bunches with turned wood handles, beads and all sorts of fancies. most are pretty reasonable on ETSY or various fiber suppliers. I did not see one with a draw snare thingy like you describe. 

I'll ask Deb what she knows about them in the morning.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[Shainarue]

I don't want a wood handle, as in horrible at carving wood, lol

I was just saying that was the only handle example I could find for that style and wondered how I would make it with metal. 

This morning I had the thought to do a ball end and drill a slanted hole through it. Although, when you mentioned hollow, my brain thought of pipe. So now I'm turning over ideas for small diameter pipe... 

You're correct, the lasso/snare style aren't common. Ashley says they're used on wheels that have a really long and bendy orifice. She said a few of the women in her group have that style for their wheels so that's why she wanted a few of that style. 

[Frosty]

I can only think of a couple places where really small dia. tubing is used, like old oil pressure gages. Brake line would be really large. 

I don't think there is such a thing as a long twisty orifice. By their nature they are through the hub of the flyer literally the center of rotation. They have to be round and straight. This is a pretty typical example. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/54/ad/f2/54adf2091cf7aaf3299bddea68b43790.jpg

I don't know how a noose would be an improvement over a really simple hook design but I don't know more than I do.

Just be sure whatever metal you use won't stain the wool and is smooth enough it can't snag. I have a pair of snap ring pliers that came in a yard sale tool box that is perfect for bending the hook. They also double as really small scrolling pliers. It's been so many years since I removed and installed a snap ring retainer I don't know where my old pair is but if you're going to start making orifice hooks I recommend you find something similar to bend the hooks or whatever wire art ends you put on them.

Before you start putting them in your stock bear in mind you can buy them all day long in the range of $10 online so you have to turn them out in a couple minutes or make really beautiful ones to be in the black. I don't think I have more than half an hour in the 10 or so I made for Deb's spinner friends. One of the spinners, I can't think of his name kept a couple sticks or wire and pliers in his spinning kit and made them on the spot for others who lost or forgot theirs.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

As of now, I'm only making the four that my wife requested so she can give them as gifts to her spinning group.

As for questioning the long twisty orifice - I will trust my spinning wife to know what she's talking about, lol. She's not always the best at describing things, so "long and bendy" might not actually mean long and bendy. 

I was able to get a few examples when I searched "flexible loop" "orifice hook" (with quotes). One of the results marketed it as being more gentle on the orifice & also easier to use than fishing around with the hook. So there's that as well I guess.

The straight hooks are definitely easier to make. Heck, I'm seeing them also made with copper wire & various pliers, reinforcing the handle with a smaller gauge of wrapped copper wire  and sometimes beads threaded on - which wouldn't even require me to fire up the forge or torch (and maybe sweetie would even be willing to try doing them herself). 

The pipe I was thinking of was for use on the handle - not the part that goes into the orifice. So it wouldn't have to be super tiny - just reasonably sized for a handhold. I was thinking 1/4". Even better if I can find square tubing - then I could twist it without needing to square up a round tube. Anyway, then attach some sort of removeable cap to the end, so that the jewelers wire or fishing line can be attached to the underside of the cap and replaced if needed. 

I think if I had more time, there's loads of ideas for making it work. A few more ideas I came up with this morning:

• a split twist on 1/4" square bar, then drilling a hole in the closed top/bottom sections
• a 1/2" x 1/16" flat bar bent lengthwise (so basically angle iron but I'm not sure I could find 1/4" x 1/8" angle) twisted - which forms a hollow center as well as  a beautiful twist ... I have no idea how I would bend lengthwise though. In my head it looks like everything would go wonky. I was thinking a jig in the clamp - line it up and hammer it over the edge of the jig. But usually the stuff that seems simple like that in my head turns out to go all awry in real life, lol

And as soon as I had the idea to drill a hole through the top of a bar, I started coming up with other ideas for handles on both straight hooks & loop hooks! Because really, as long as it's short enough to drill through lengthwise, it could be made into a handle. With the straight hooks, the back end would just have a loop formed after it's threaded through the handle. And with the loop hooks, they would have some sort of bead or other stop mechanism attached. 

I guess I've kind of answered my own question. I just needed more time to think on it I guess. But really, when I posted this last night, I just wanted to see the pics that were already in this thread but are no longer available. Seemed like there were a lot of good ideas already here in the thread but I couldn't see them, lol

George has also messaged me privately and is going to send me some pics as he is unable to upload to the site currently.

[Frosty]

Deb just came in and she hasn't seen a flexible loop orifice hook and we've spent a little time looking for a video of how they work. Nor does she see how one would be easier to use or easier on the orifice. I did find some pics of various kinds and will give some thought to making them. Do you know what plastic coated flexible wire costs? Heavy fishing line would work, there is one gal who keeps line in her kit to make "emergency" loops. She basically folds a length in half and ties the ends together. Evidently you just pinch the loop together insert it in the orifice and thread the yarn (leader) through the loop and pull it through.

The last description is a supposition on my part, I haven't seen a demo or diagram of how they work.

The "bendyness" of the orifice must be the angle between the orifice "axle" bearing and the hole in it's side the yarn feeds through. I'm only familiar with Deb's Lundrum and the other "visitor" wheel upstairs so I'm far from an expert.

At least I have a picture of the tool I can think on. I'll get back or rejoin with any ideas I get. 

This is the kind of "problem" I love working on. 

Below is a pic of the drum carder, Doffer I came up with. This is Deb's  Doxy Doffer and the couple I made for guild members have a cable twist handles. The curved handle makes it easy to push or pull and the bend in the "tail" provides leverage to pry the wool through the cards up or down. After brushing I finished it with lanolin from raw wool so it won't stain. It also lubricates so it lips under the wool more easily. Deb keeps a bit of raw wool with it to refinish as needed.

Frosty The Lucky.

  

[Shainarue]

That's an adorable doffer, Frosty! 

So - something totally weird just happened. A local blacksmith I'm friends with on FB just posted her first completed bobbin of spun fiber. I knew she also spun, but it's just weird that she posted a pic TODAY showing her wheel with her orifice hook hanging visibly in the shot. Hers is just a paperclip she straightened with a tiny hook at the end - which I know is a thing some spinners do in a pinch. But when I asked if she could list any improvements to it were she to make one herself, she said she didn't like the design of the straight one at all and wasn't sure how to make it better. Said she has an antique wheel with a very small orifice and it's hard to get the hook in there and fished through the other side sometimes. 

So now I think I understand better the use of the loop style! I guess I'm making one more of that style now, lol. I told her I'd bring one to the next meeting.

I also found a video of someone showing how it works. The link should go directly to where she starts using it - so you don't have to sit through all the talking bits like I did, lol

 

[Frosty]

That's pretty straight forward alright. All a person needs is maybe 6" of 50lb test monofilament, anything but a loop you can hook a finger through is fancyness. So, what kind of handle do you want to put on it? 

You could buy some nice hardwood say 1" square or so. Level it in the drill press and drill a hole in one end say 1/2 way through and screw a screw stud in the end. then chuck the stud end in a drill press or hand drill and "turn" it with files and sand paper into a comfortable shape and size. By turn, turn the motor on and let the file and sand paper remove wood until you like the shape then using finer grit sand paper make it silky smooth and stain and finish as you like.

If it isn't steady enough to "turn" mark center of  the other end by holding the flat of a pencil against it while it's turning and drive a finish nail in the center. Fit the exposed end in a hole in a board lubed with a little wax. This is a "center" and will prevent the work from wobbling or wandering while you turn it.

Starting with round doweling is harder to center drill for the stud. Unless you have a lathe of course.

Make sense?

[anvil]

Nice work, Frosty!

[Frosty]

Thanks Anvil.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

Makes sense Frosty. Ashley specifically requested the handle be made of metal but that may have been because she knows how poor both our woodworking skills are. Maybe I'll try creating a turned handle with my drill press and show her to see what she thinks. 

I have a five different handles detailed out to try:

• Measure 5 cuts of 3/8" bar to length of 1/8" drill bit.
  • 1st bar (sq): Cut lines down 4 sides
  • 2nd bar (sq): Use drill press - equal spaced holes offset on 2 meeting sides (holes all the way through)
  • 3rd bar (sq): Use drill press - equal spaced holes on one side (all the way through) \
  • 4th bar (rd): wood texture
  • 5th bar (sq): made to octagon
• Twist all to preference. (Wood texture will get short back & forth twists.)
• Make sure all are absolutely straight.
• Find center on end & mark.
• Clamp securely to drill press and drill hole through center lenthwise.
• Straight hook will feed through hole in handle & then loop at top to secure in place.
• Filament line will feed both ends through hole in handle & then connect at top with bead or crimp or something to hold in place.

[Frosty]

I just sat through that video again to see what I missed. Nope I got it the first time. The cable doesn't slide in the handle at all so there is NO REASON for a through hole. All it needs is one deep enough to secure the wire. A single drop of low melt silver solder and the cable / wire won't come out. 

How about buying wooden eggs and drilling the wire mounting hole in the narrow end? That would be a comfortable shape in the hand and look nice.

If you want metal stick with what you  know. Steel. Do you know how to do a diamond twist? There are good instructions and maybe a video here. A mod to make it unique, five the stock a wood grain texture after incising. Both times. Check out the directions, it'll make sense.

Twist up say a foot and cut to the desired length for handles. Smooth or round the ends as desired, drill and silver solder the wire loop and apply your finish.

As a general pro, working tip. Do all the forging, etc. on as long a piece of stock as reasonably possible then cut to end size. This will save you a lot of time both in the initial forging and in cleaning up and finishing parts.

You'll figure out how hard it is to center drill through a long piece of stock pretty quickly. I've been working metal in one form or another for about 60 years and wouldn't even attempt to do it after the stock is twisted. 

If you want shiny attachments, drill and tap each end to receive a polished hex or whatever screw. There are fittings that are pre-drilled so you can slip your wire through, bend the ends a little and screw it into the handle-bar. With the hole only deep enough the fitting barely tightens against the shoulder it will pinch the wire against the bottom of the hole and secure it against anything but a wrench.

Make sense?

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

It all makes perfect sense, yes

If a diamond twist is the pineapple twist, then yes I've done it before. As chance would have it, that's actually the piece I scrounged out of my test pieces pile to drill into and show Ashley as a concept. I cut it in half and drilled through. Definitely not finished or refined in any way, lol. Just to show the concept before I went to the trouble. 

You're right, drilling lengthwise was a pain but it wasn't that bad. I do like the suggestion to drill just a bit on one end though. 

As for the twist, I thought the corners would be to pokey for comfortable handling. Ashley agreed. Which is fine because I had smoother twists planned anyway. 

Here are some more ideas that George sent me for anyone else that might hit this thread later. 

 

[Scott NC]

On 7/24/2023 at 2:29 PM, Frosty said:

Deb's  Doxy Doffer

  Very unique, I like it very much.

[Frosty]

Yes, pineapple twist is what I meant. I break the edges on pineapple twist handles I make for the ladies or they're too sharp for comfort. Men like the sharper corners, I know I find the sensation pleasant but I am one of those brutish men. 

Thank you Scott. They functioned really well as a doffer too. One of my little successes. I only made the one doxy animal heads don't let a person push on them with their palm. A leaf turned as a gentle hook works very well, the leaf fits comfortably in the palm to push against and you can hook a couple fingers on the other side to make pulling easier. 

A cable twist was much more popular than the pineapple twist and I renamed it a "yarn" twist for the spinners as a nefarious marketing ploy.  Unfortunately I wasn't able to make a "ball of yarn" finial that looked good at all and a ball wasn't easy to push or pull so I scrapped it.

It's very satisfying to look at a tool, an improved tool and come up with a modification that actually works well. It's a "Kodak" product for me.

Frosty The Lucky.

 

[anvil]

My first thought was to make one out of damascus.

[Shainarue]

Damascus would certainly be beautiful! It'll have to go on the 'futures' project list though, since she wants these by Sunday and I've never done damascus before, lol. Oh, and it's in the 100+ around here for awhile so I'm trying to keep the heating parts to a minimum. 

Last night I used a cold chisel to create the lines for the rope twist and marked the cut lines for each handle along my square bar. I had initially wanted to do one where the 4 lines went all the way through to form an open twist, like a basket twist without the forge welding. But with the size this short, all my power tool cutters would cut too long so I'd need to hot cut - and that's not happening this time. Tonight I'll light the forge and get the various sections twisted to my liking - shouldn't be more than an hour tops even with the multiple water breaks and stepping inside to cool off. Then I'll go to the basement where it's coolest to do the finish work.

[Frosty]

I've lived in Alaska for 51 years and except a couple visits with relatives in hot country I hardly remember what it's like hiding from the heat. Evenings at the Folk's place in E. Wenatchee were okay in the mid 80s and the front porch was nice in the morning with a breeze. However, when the sun crested the mountains dead east it was like someone ran a torch over me and back inside I went. 

Bench work in the basement sounds like a plan to me.

I look forward to seeing your results.

Frosty The Lucky.

[Glenn]

Consider taking 4 pieces of square bar, welding the ends, then heating and doing the twist.  The 4 lines go all the way through and form an open twist, with nice sharp edges

[Shainarue]

The final product, tested and approved. 

Two in standard style. Two in "loop" style. Hole drilled into end of handle and hook inserted. Held in place with JB Weld because I didn't have a tap & die small enough to thread the two pieces.

[Frosty]

They look good Shaina. Well done!

Frosty The Lucky.

[Shainarue]

Thanks Frosty! 

[Frosty]

I just calls em like I sees em. 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Irondragon Forge ClayWorks]

I agree they are much nicer than any of the store bought one's Debi has.

I can't control the wind, all I can do is adjust my sails.