100# Little Giant diagnosis

[Adair]

I have a 100# little giant that I'm setting up in my new shop.  I'm trying to adjust the strike currently and have been having some issues. 

 

I've tried the crosshead with "ears" up and "ears" down.  With them down I can almost get a 1" gap between the dies (See Photo).  With the ears up I can't get better than 1-3/4" gap between the dies.  A slightly longer pitman arm would solve the problem.  I am mostly working 3/4" stock for a project. 

 

 

The performance may or may not be related.  I've run 100# Little Giants quite a bit in the past,  so I know the heft of the blow possible with this hammer and I haven't been able to achieve it.  I can make nice, controlled feathering blows but I haven't been able to really pack a punch.  There is no flutter or hula problem.  I have eased off and tensioned the spring somewhat,  but I haven't really tightened the spring down very far.  I'm not sure how much compression I can really put on the spring, so I have been cautious. 

 

 

The photo above show about a 1/2" gap between the toggle arm and the spring carrier.  That is about as far as I've tightened the spring adjuster.  In my mind,  the tighter the spring becomes, the more speed is required to overcome the suspension of the toogle links, making a snappier blow.  So by tightening the spring I should improve the punch.  How far can I really tighten the spring?     (I'm making a guard right now, until then I'm wearing a hard hat) 

 

It's frustrating to me that the sweet spot for the gap in the dies is somewhere between the alternate crosshead positions.  This is not easy to adjust for different stock.  The dies are 4" as specified.  The spring is straight from the compnay. The spring carries the toggle arms in a near horizontal position at the current adjustment. 

 

 

Cheers, Adair

[kubiack]

Perhaps the 100lb hammers were different but those arms look like they are from a Transitional hammer not an Old Style. Is it possible you have the wrong arms?

[Adair]

The hammer was nearly complete (missing only the spring and pitman)

and appeared to be barely used when I bought it fifteen years ago.  I believe I've seen hammers of this style with the same arms. 

 

I just looked up the original instructions on the Little Giant website.  They recommend a 2" gap for stock varying from nothing up to 3".  I guess I remembered that incorrectly.  The crosshead ears have to go up.  Anyone have a trick for spring compression?  I've been using pipe clamps and lashings and it's getting old. 

 

-Adair

[Judson Yaggy]

How old is the spring?  And what are you using for lube and how much how often?

[Dillon Sculpture]

Definitely need more space between the dies for the power punch. Crosshead ears up

[Don Hanson]

I have two 100 lb Little Giants and love em! Run about 2" gap between the dies for hardest blows. Ears up on the old style, ears down on the new style... Might want to back off the spring tention a bit also.

[Don Hanson]

New style, but same princible. Both these hammers hit very hard!

 

 

[Frosty]

Adair: I'm not sure what you want to do. Looking through "The Little Giant Powerhammer" book it shows the Crosshead above the pitman and crank. Don's pic above is as shown in the book.

 

My 50LG has a good 2-2.5" gap with the crank at BDC (Bottom Dead Center). It will not only beat the stuffins out of easily 3/4" I can feather the treadle and just buff the stock.

 

Just so you  know though, I've only had the one powerhammer ever and there are lots of guys here who've been using and maintaining them for decades.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Don Hanson]

Frosty, mine are new style hammers, crosshead goes above the pitman. His is old style and crosshead goes below pitman. He just need to flip the crosshead around with the ears up.

[Don Hanson]

Seems every time I post on one of these 100 lb LG it kills the thread. What's up with that? :)

[dsloan]

Sir,

 

Don is right the crosshead goes below the pitman. 

 

What I woud try is this the crosshead ears up with an 1" 3/4. Between the dies with the spring as loose as possible.  To tight of a spring never works well. Again age of the spring?  Replace it if you have any doubts. The transitional arms are not the problem, but a welcome addition.

 

These hammers run on centrifical force.  So if you impede this with to tight of a spring or a weak spring it seriously disrupts the action.  This is where the punch comes in.  Catching that upper die in just the right spot in it's downward stroke.

 

Spring compression: All thread with two ear like this ().  Just tighten the bolts.  One note on this if your are over half a hole off you've got to much compression.  You should hanging loosely be under half a hole on compression.  Make sure you have the old style spring they are shorter.

 

 

 

In this case I'd leave the spring loose and play with the die gap first 1-3/4 to 2-1/4.  Tighten the spring only if you get fludder.

 

With my 100 I can forge a 2 inch piece of round stock down to 3/8ths in two heats.

 

dave from diller

[Don Hanson]

Hey Dave! How ya doin buddy?

[mike-hr]

Hello, all. I'm currently restoring a 100# LG to better than working condition. This thread has helped a lot, saved me from asking more questions. We should all remember, a thread subject not only helps the immediate folks with an issue, but helps many down the line when using the search function.

Keep it up, 

mike

[dsloan]

mike-hr,

 

New style or old???

 

I can give tips on both.

 

New style I would recomend using grease on your ram guides.  I've found that the oil we use on these will wick away.  The grease will actually stay longer.  On the break in of mine I had oiler installed and used anti-seize.  Now I'm running straight grease on the ram guides and oilers on the frame side.

 

Old style hammer the main improvement would be a brass lined ram guide.

 

Also on a 100# hammer never work on it alone if you don't have a hoist or lift.  Strictly a two man job.

 

Fact time:  All 100# hammers had removable sow blocks new and old.  2. There where only 1600 made and I know where the last three live. (Note shiny photo above for one).

 

Dave from diller

[Adair]

Hello again,

 

Sorry to have temporarily disappeared from a thread I started.  It's been a busy time. 

 

The ears of the crosshead are up again and it is clear that this is the right geometry.  The gap in the dies is about 1-7/8" at bottom dead center

 

The spring is new since I cleaned up the hammer.  Purchased from Sid 10 years ago.  Hammer hasn't been run during that time.

 

I think I may have isolated the problem.  It appears that my ram gets sticky in the wrap around guide about half way up the stroke.  It can even hang there if I let off of the treadle at the right moment.  I'm sure that is slowing the stroke enough to reduce the 'throw'.  I should start from scratch with new shims.  The ones that came with the hammer are a paper product of sorts.  Nicely made,  but hard shims are probably desireable.  Does anyone have a methodology they would like to share on how to align and shim the wrap around guide? 

 

On a side note,   My hammer had another anomoly that I discovered during clean up.  There was a gap between the forward main bearing and the flywheel when the pitman and linke were hanging plumb from the crankpin.  I had to put a shaft collar on the front of the rear bearing so that the action of the clutch didn't slide the entire crankshaft aft.  The pitman was new from Sid, but I can't imagine that different pitman geometry would be sufficient to creat so much offset.  There was approximately a half inch gap between the rear of the crankplate and the front of the forward bearing. 

 

Thanks all for your input.  When I manage to get some good hits out of this hammer,  it really does hit hard and I 'm reminded of a time when I spent a lot of sweat around these hammers. 

 

-Adair

[Adair]

I just ran a pulley calculator and determined that my 1750 motor with a 4" to 21" pulley ratio is running the crank at 330 BPM.  How does that compare to other peoples 100 LB Little Giants? 

 

(EDIT)  I just read somewhere that the recommended speed is 275 BPM.  Looks like I need a 3-1/4" - 3-1/2" drive pulley. Now would be the time to switch from flat belt to V belts.  My motor is down low,  Are there V belts long enough?  Must I raise the motor?  It's an ancient Fairbanks Morse open frame brush motor that weighs a lot, so I'd like to keep it low if possible. 

 

-Adair

[mike-hr]

DSloan, thanks. The one I'm working on is #P501, circa 1919 old style.  What's got me scratching my head the most, is how to clean out the 'hidden pockets' that the tee bolts ride in. This machine lived outside by the puget sound for a few years. It's crusty inside these pockets, and I'm struggling how to get rotational power tools inside to buff off the high spots.

 

Adair, I'm going to make a jackshaft and shoot for 220 bpm.  This machine is going to be donated to a working musuem, and I feel folks learning to use it would appreciate a little time to think between blows. I realize this might affect the harmonics, and possibly the 'sweet spot', but it should still thump good.

[Don Hanson]

I just ran a pulley calculator and determined that my 1750 motor with a 4" to 21" pulley ratio is running the crank at 330 BPM.  How does that compare to other peoples 100 LB Little Giants? 

 

(EDIT)  I just read somewhere that the recommended speed is 275 BPM.  Looks like I need a 3-1/4" - 3-1/2" drive pulley. Now would be the time to switch from flat belt to V belts.  My motor is down low,  Are there V belts long enough?  Must I raise the motor?  It's an ancient Fairbanks Morse open frame brush motor that weighs a lot, so I'd like to keep it low if possible. 

 

-Adair

 

 

Yes 4" pulley on the motor is too fast and the hammer wont work right. 3-1/4 or 3-1/2" will be fine. You can get just about any length V belt you need.

[Adair]

Don,

 

That is good to hear.  I will start shopping for twin v belt pulleys to fit my motor.  Could you provide the O.D. of the drive pulleys on your hammers?  I know what I.D. I am after, but not sure about the O.D which is how they are listed.  

 

Are twin V belts sufficient?  Do you know the belt type (A,B,orC)?   

 

(EDIT)  It looks like a 3.75" diameter V belt pulley has a 3.43 (3-7/16") pitch diameter.  That is as close as I've been able to get so far.  Belt length will be 148" I hope those things will track on a 21" crowned pulley. This stuff isn't cheap.   

 

(EDIT)  Just Spoke with Roger at Little Giant.  For the belt length he recommended serpentine belts so they would track on the 21" crown pulley.  I can't figure out how to track these down since I don't really know what a serpentine belt is. 

 

-Adair

[dsloan]

Gentleman,

 

Wow we woke this thread up. 

 

First off Don your photo's didn't kill it :P .  Good luck and have fun this weekend.

 

Second, if possible I'd like Phil to jump in here with his insight.

 

Adair; once again let us look at your spring not under compression it should measure 7-1/2 inches long.  A new style spring will measure 8 inches.  This could cause problems.

 

Next question are your shims for the ram guide green paper with white in the middle? If so this is what you want to use.  They are from Sid and work well.  Next tight in the middle loose on the top and bottom. Not a problem I have had this problem before and I did not have to see a doctor.  This is not new for an old style hammer, but the addition of a brass lined ram guide will cure this as I noted before but we can work with what you have. Your ram guide looks like this )( front to back.  All you have to do is straighten it.  You will need several tools all are relatively cheap.  In your case I'd start with a 1 inch bolt the length of the ram front to back.  Grind a Vee on the bolt head to fit in the frame vee or rail.  Install a nut and a small plate and put it in the center of the ram guide and loosen the nut so it will stretch out the )( in the center.  Oh just the ram guide installed not with the ram in place.  You can also put this in place and smack the ram guide in the center top and bottom with a sledge hammer to bring it back in line. 

 

Side note tight at the bottom on an old style strike with two hammers on the side of the ram guide toward the top.

 

Does this make since?  I can add photo's on the bolt and how to install.

 

Next if you have play front of the machine to back of the machine (Grabbing the fly wheel and pulling forward or pushing back you should not have over an 1/8 of an inch.)  You will need to fix this.

 

Next subject pulley diameter.  I've been working with Sid and these hammers since 2005.  And the discussed subject is the speed at which these hammers run.  How to say this with out sounding bad.  First off a Little Giant and other mechincal hammer run of centfical force (if I spelled that right).  You have to have enough rpm plus hp to pick the ram back up.  Next your running a wet clutch (I hope).  I've actually stood behind Don's hammer when running and seen the hammer stop when it made a strike. Because or the speed and hp it picked it up without missing a beat.  Your caculator can not take this into account. 

 

I realize everyone wants exact answers but with these types of hammer you have to take some experience into account.  I've found that a 1/4 inch over size pulley work extremely well.  I've used 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 outside diameter pulleys on 25's.  The larger pulley worked better on new style hammers.  Letting them run a little faster.

 

If running Vee belts go for the B belts they are tougher and are oversize to fit in the groove.  Me personally I'd run 3 easier to find in this O.D. of pulley.  The parts store guy will stop straching his head.

 

Last point for Adair: A serpintine belt is a belt that is wide with notchs in it. Speciality belt with a specialty pulley I'm sure Roger can hook you up for a price$$$.    A three Vee belt 3 inch in OD what Don recommend will be a hell of a lot cheaper.

 

Phil has had really good luck with these on a 25 a 100 would be a different story.

 

Mike we should save this for a later disscusion.  You are right the tee bolt area's are tough to reach I know your problem, pics would help.

 

dave from diller

[Don Hanson]

Don,

 

That is good to hear.  I will start shopping for twin v belt pulleys to fit my motor.  Could you provide the O.D. of the drive pulleys on your hammers?  I know what I.D. I am after, but not sure about the O.D which is how they are listed.  

 

Are twin V belts sufficient?  Do you know the belt type (A,B,orC)?   

 

(EDIT)  It looks like a 3.75" diameter V belt pulley has a 3.43 (3-7/16") pitch diameter.  That is as close as I've been able to get so far.  Belt length will be 148" I hope those things will track on a 21" crowned pulley. This stuff isn't cheap.   

 

(EDIT)  Just Spoke with Roger at Little Giant.  For the belt length he recommended serpentine belts so they would track on the 21" crown pulley.  I can't figure out how to track these down since I don't really know what a serpentine belt is. 

 

-Adair

 

Adair,

 

My old 100 has a 3-3/8" OD motor pulley & 2 V belts. The new one is 3-15/16" & 3 V belts. Both work fine, but I came very close to putting a smaller pulley on the new 100. It was acting up at first and was more difficult to tune than the older one, but after we got it running right, I really liked the faster speed and harder blows. Forgot about having that large a pulley on the new hammer until just now...

 

I've seen long V belts on other hammers that track just fine.

 

Just follow Dave's instruction and you will get it going, especially the sticky ram part and making sure you have the right spring... He knows how to make a LG run right.

[Adair]

Adair; once again let us look at your spring not under compression it should measure 7-1/2 inches long.  A new style spring will measure 8 inches.  This could cause problems.elow

 

Dave,  The spring is shown below.  It is 7-1/2" when not under compression.

 

 

Next question are your shims for the ram guide green paper with white in the middle? If so this is what you want to use.  They are from Sid and work well. 

 

The shims look like they are original to the 1937 hammer.  See photo. Little Giant does not sell a shim set for the 100# hammer.  I'll need to make them from a suitable material.

 

 

 

Next tight in the middle loose on the top and bottom. Not a problem I have had this problem before and I did not have to see a doctor.  This is not new for an old style hammer, but the addition of a brass lined ram guide will cure this as I noted before but we can work with what you have. Your ram guide looks like this )( front to back.  All you have to do is straighten it.  You will need several tools all are relatively cheap.  In your case I'd start with a 1 inch bolt the length of the ram front to back.  Grind a Vee on the bolt head to fit in the frame vee or rail.  Install a nut and a small plate and put it in the center of the ram guide and loosen the nut so it will stretch out the )( in the center.  Oh just the ram guide installed not with the ram in place.  You can also put this in place and smack the ram guide in the center top and bottom with a sledge hammer to bring it back in line. 

 

Side note tight at the bottom on an old style strike with two hammers on the side of the ram guide toward the top.

 

Does this make since?  I can add photo's on the bolt and how to install.

 

The wrap-around guide does not appear to be distorted.  The shims had been altered so they are thinner at the top of the guide.  I think if I add a couple thousands back in it may alleviate the problem.

 

 

Next if you have play front of the machine to back of the machine (Grabbing the fly wheel and pulling forward or pushing back you should not have over an 1/8 of an inch.)  You will need to fix this.

 

I previously had about 3/8" of play.  I added the shaft collar as I mentioned before to alleviate the movement. 

 

 

 

 

Next subject pulley diameter.  I've been working with Sid and these hammers since 2005.  And the discussed subject is the speed at which these hammers run.  How to say this with out sounding bad.  First off a Little Giant and other mechincal hammer run of centfical force (if I spelled that right).  You have to have enough rpm plus hp to pick the ram back up.  Next your running a wet clutch (I hope).  I've actually stood behind Don's hammer when running and seen the hammer stop when it made a strike. Because or the speed and hp it picked it up without missing a beat.  Your caculator can not take this into account. I realize everyone wants exact answers but with these types of hammer you have to take some experience into account.  I've found that a 1/4 inch over size pulley work extremely well.  I've used 3-1/4 to 3-1/2 outside diameter pulleys on 25's.  The larger pulley worked better on new style hammers.  Letting them run a little faster.

 

My goal has been to establish a baseline from which to assess and tune this hammer.  I assumed that starting with BPM was the most direct path forward.  If I have to buy multiple pulleys to get to the bottom of this I will.  Yes I am running a wet clutch.  The hammer originally had a 3 phase motor and a 4" fiber flat belt pulley.  I replaced the motor with a single phase motor of matching RPM with the same size belt pulley. 

 

If running Vee belts go for the B belts they are tougher and are oversize to fit in the groove.  Me personally I'd run 3 easier to find in this O.D. of pulley.  The parts store guy will stop straching his head.

Last point for Adair: A serpintine belt is a belt that is wide with notchs in it. Speciality belt with a specialty pulley I'm sure Roger can hook you up for a price$$$.    A three Vee belt 3 inch in OD what Don recommend will be a hell of a lot cheaper.

 

Thank you for the tip. Roger at LG had suggested that the serpenting belts might be cheaper.  (3) 148" type B V belts are not cheap, but they may well be cheaper than a serpentine.  The bottom line here is whether or not three V belts over 55" pulley centers will track on a crowned pulley.  I would think they might wander. 

 

Dave,  Thank you for your assistance.  In time I will get to the bottom of this.  Hopefully the attached photos help to clarify the state of my hammer. 

 

-Adair

[dsloan]

Adair,

 

Wow, great I been a help to you.

 

Your square on the front on the ram guide was a good picture. The picture of the frame with a square was better.  Your wear if any is on the inside.  On the ram guide. Mechinacal hammer wear at weird places.

 

Shims,  they can be made from brass to gascket material. (which Sid uses to blue that materilal being used by a red neck).The only thing you want is a material that will not swell when wet or with oil).

 

Belts in this discussion one that runs three inches wide total width compared to three that can cover over that.

 

A solid belt wll only cover three inches, three belts over the crown will always pull back to center. Center belt will cover a hallf inch and one to side will cover a half inch over an inch away (then pull back to center).

 

Three Vee belts will cover more sufrace area than on solid belt.  Like I said before it's amazing how these belts track center.

 

One thing that I will note is I note sure which way this belt should be off for proper clutch disengagment.  (Center to rear clutch) they are opposite.  When you engage the clutch it should pull the belts out of alignment.  Causing the at rest running position to be true dead center this helps with disengagement. The belts will acually pull the clutch to disengaged position.

 

We've fixed the end play and the spring looks good. Some good shims would be a bonus, try it wihout any shims.  Then add only the same amount of shims on both sides  Itt will freeze on one side quicker than the other (a guess the left side).

 

When we get done this hammeer will hit hard clockwise or counterwise the same way

 

dave from diller

[Adair]

Dave,

 

I have a new 3 groove, 3.75" O.D./3.4" pitch diameter sheave ordered with QD collar.  Three B type V belts are on the way.  I should be able to have these before the weekend. 

 

I have yet to shop for shim material.  I've had a straight edge on the V guides of the ram and both Vees are free of visible wear.  I've never put a straight edge to the inside of the wrap-around guide.  I'll check that when I find some shim material. 

 

As far as belt position for clutch disengagement,  I imagine the length of these belts will help accommodate the movement better than short belts. 

 

I just spent the weekend doing two solid days of constant hand forging for a public demonstration and I have renewed vigor to get my hammer running again. 

 

-Adair

[dsloan]

Adair,

 

I can almost bet a dollar when you have the ram guide off, lay a straigt edge in the vee way on the inside.  I bet it will be bent to either end.  Bolted up to the frame can really put some torque on these things.

 

On shimming there is no rule to say you can't put more on one side than the other. 

 

I'm trying to think of a come shim material that is easy to locate.  You could go with steel, brass or copper for the thicker stuff.  If you have a good auto parts store gasket material for the thinner. 

 

I've spent up to eight hours trying to get the best shim fit on an old style.  It came down to bending and straightening the ram guide.  After I beat, pryed and pulled on it for an hour things came together.

 

When it all comes together and your hammer is running good it will put a smile on your face.  I recommend using scrap wood to test the power.  Use a piece about the size of the material that you will be forging.  It saves time from heating a piece of steel.  Don't be afraid to play with the spring tension and the pitman height.  When you hit the sweet spot you'll know it.  When I found mine I ate up every piece of scrap in the shop and said I wonder what would happen if I stuck this lead hammer in it.  Well need less to say I have a lead hammer with two flat sides.

 

Good luck I can't wait for the results.

 

Dave from diller