100# Little Giant diagnosis

[jeremy k]

The shim stock I was told to use was "klingersil" for the main bearings and ram guide shim stock. I bought multiple thicknesses and cut to fit what I needed. I used different thicknesses so as to be able to remove as needed for wear, but still have control of clearances.

[Adair]

Does anyone know the thread size for the zerk fittings on the pitman and the clutch spider for a 100# hammer?  I can't seem to dig up zerk fittings large enough and i would like to order them.  I don't know if they are straight cut or pipe thread or what have you. 

 

-Adair

[Adair]

Update:

 

The Ram ways are absolutely straight:

 

 

The Wrap-around gude is dead straight on both faces:

 

 

 

I received the new sheave and installed that:

 

 

Still looking for shim material locally.  The existing shims were a bit dated:

 

 

-A.

[dsloan]

Adair,

I love the shim photo.

The first photo of the ram is not right it should be to the sides not the front. The wear points to the left or right.

I'll not offer an opinion on the ram guide as of yet. Just that if you can see any light between your straight edge and the ends. Your bowed in the middle. From your second photo it looks like there is some bow, but that can be from your flash.

The human eye can see .030" with a proper light source behind it you can see .010". This is enough of misalignment to cause the tight in middle and loose on the end.

An added note: PM or message me I will provide you with shim material.

Like I said before I just takes a touch to throw these hammers out.

Wrap around ram guides can be a pain.

Zerts are all pipe thread.

I think your on plan.
Dave

[Adair]

Decided I would remove the clutch spider to close the gap created between the crank plate and the front journal.  It took some soaking and I had to weld on a slide hammer.  Now I need to order a new gib key from Little Giant.  Belts showed up today just as I broke the spider key loose.  Time to build a new treadle and linkage while it is all apart and fit new wood blocks in the spider.  

 

-Adair

 

[dsloan]

Adair,

 

Excellant job, that will work better than your stops that you previously had.

 

If you didn't damage the end to bad you could reuse your current spider key.  I would recommend that, the keys were custom fit at the factory.  You could run into a lot of fitting to get a new key to work properly.  Since your sliding your clutch pulley ahead to make up for clearence you will have a little extra key sticking out the rear.

 

Dave from diller

[Adair]

It's been a while.  The hammer has sat while I have built a new business. 

Still trying to shim the wrap-around guide.  I made .125  and .025 steel shims for each side and many .005 soft brass shims.  When I have the ram pressed snug to the rear guide,  my front guide is not aligned properly.  I can't seem to correct it with more shims on one side.  I'm currently wondering if putting heat on the wrap around guide to shift it is wise or if I am asking for trouble. 

-Adair

[jeremy k]

In many cases one has to adjust the shape of the stamped steel ram guide,

[Adair]

I'm tempted to heat the guide in place with a rose bud and clamp it down tight, then convince it a little with some sledge taps.
I set the project aside while I debate the path forward, and spent the day building a new treadle and treadle links. 

-Adair

[jeremy k]

easily done

 

[Adair]

Attached is a photo of the treadle I built.  I've always hated the hoop style treadle with its tendency to twist. 

This treadle is counterbalanced and connected in back by a keyed shaft.  I'm so broke right now I had to cut the keyways by hand. 

I'm excited about how much play this will remove from the system. 

Tonight I built an entirely new yoke and pivot for the spider.  Looking forward to connecting these with adjustable, balanced pushrods. 

-Adair

[Adair]

I am struggling with getting this guide aligned.  It appears to me to be twisted.  The photo above shows the gap on the top left side of the front way.  As far as I can tell there is full contact at the low end of the front way.  It's impossible to see under there. 

I've had heat on it, but I think that is too much steel for my #4 MFA rosebud.  What I think has to happen is to coerce the top "horn" of the front way to the right.  Not sure how to go about doing that without making some mighty big clamping jig and finding a bigger heat source.  I'd have to heat a lot of 1/2" steel to make that thing twist. 

Am I even certain that the ram is sitting square to the frame?  I have it clamped to the rear ways, but there is no reference point on this machine. 

-Adair

[Judson Yaggy]

Reference point is found by pulling the main shaft and aligning a square with the 2 lower bearing cups and the rear slide.

[kubiack]

That would assume that the bearings were poured square with the rear slide and have not worn unevenly. It also assumes that the rear slide has not worn unevenly. I would still agree that those two place would be the datum but some judgement will have to be used when referencing them.

[Judson Yaggy]

Good points Kubiack.

[Adair]

OK gang,  I've discovered or confirmed a bit more of the problem with my guide.  I believe I have verified that the front way is twisted relative to the rear way.  The following photos should show what I've found

With the guide sitting on my platten table, the bolting surfaces are perpendicular to the table on two axis.  The v surfaces of the front guide however are out of perpendicular.  The top right is 3/16" out and the bottom left is 3/16" out.  I checked the bolt hole positions to see if their plumb line was perpendicular to the table.  They were not.  They are at least 3/16" out of plumb.  I don't know if the latter observation counts for anything because who knows if the holes in the casting are plumb. 

To cross reference I placed the guide tight to the ram, so that all bearing surfaces were mated.  I aligned one bolt hole on the left side.  The right side holes were nowhere near alignment.  This verifies to me that the front guide is badly twisted relative to the rear.  The only other variable would be if the ram guides were not co-axial.  I don't know how to check that, but it seems less likely.

I tried putting a strain on the top of the guide with a pipe clamp and heating the sides of the guide, then letting it cool.  This is not working.  I can't imagine another way to apply force to this thing.  It is very hard to manipulate in place. My only other thought is to cut the front of the guide off,  grind full bevels. align the front guide with clamps, and weld the grooves.  I'm sure there will be a lot of movement at the welds, but maybe they will balance out as they cool together.  Thoughts? 

There really is no wear at all on these surfaces.  This hammer must have been out of whack since day one.  It certainly was not used much and maybe this is why. 

[kubiack]

Do you have access to a mill or sharper? If so I have a few ideas.

The old style hammers usually have some shims between the guide and frame which can be removed to adjust for ware. If there is enough room you might be able to machine some spacers on an angle to correct the alignment. Really I bet you could make the spacers with some careful filing and fitting and not even need access to machine tools. If said spaces would make the guide surface too far away from the frame the guide surface could be lined with some bronze sheet epoxied into place.

A second option would be to weld a few build up layers on the guide surface and then machine it to the correct angle. If you don’t have access to any machine tools I bet this is something Roger Rice at Little Giant could do. I had him rebuild a ram for my 50# hammer and thought his work was good and his prices reasonable.

Last and probable the most expensive option. Little Giant has the wrap around guide for 100# hammers available. It is pretty expensive but if this is holding the hammer up from making money it might be worth it.

One final though. Have you tried fitting the ram in the opposite direction? I’m pretty sure they can be put in either way at least that is what I thing I remember from the Little Giant rebuild video. You might try that and see how everything goes together.

Ok, two final thoughts. You might just call Roger Rice and ask his advice. Every time I have talked with him he has been very nice and willing to share his knowledge of these hammers.

[Adair]

Kubiack, 

Thanks for you input, but no amount of shimming can correct this.  If one were standing facing the hammer,  the front way is rotated counterclockwise relative to the rear way.  The only way to fix this is either to cut and weld the guide or to slot the bolt holes each by about 1/4" and rotate the guide around. 

-Adair

[beaudry]

 Checking to see if the ram is in backwards is not a bad idea. 

On my old style 100# LG  [ serial 635 ] the  cast boss on the ram that runs in the v guides sticks out about 1/2'' further on the frame side. Otherwise it looks  symmetrical side to side and front  to back . Flipping it around would change the direction of the dovetail taper and set the ram back in relationship to the sow block dovetail.  This is not a big deal as the bottom die already has a shim to get the dies to line up.  My top die key goes in left to right. [ facing the hammer ]

My wrap around guide is shimmed with fiber or paper shims to the frame . The right side is shimmed out a good 1/16'' more than the left.

I bought the hammer fully rebuilt from Sid at Little Giant about 18 years ago.

That's a lot of heavy parts to be handling, hope you have some kind of lift or hoist. Good luck! 

Little Giants  sometimes get a bad rap as being at  the bottom of the barrel for mechanical hammers,  but I've raised a family and put one kid through private college with mine. 

 Looking at the pictures of your guide I realize it is different than mine. The wraparound guide on my hammer has a heavy rib cast or forged in around the bottom edge. The guide on your hammer looks more like the guide on my 25 # [ 1910] hammer. 

Are you sure that you have the right guide ? I can't remember if you said that the hammer was all together and running when you got it ?

 I know there was a lot of ongoing changes and modifications in the manufacturing of these machines.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dave H.]

In hammers I have worked on with worn guides I have found  

that reversing the motor will put the pressure on the side of the guides that are not worn so bad.

 Dave Huffman

[Adair]

I've had time to make some headway on this project again. As shown above I was convinced that three of the holes of the wrap-around guide were simply in the wrong location.  I machined some plugs and welded them in place, filling those holes.  I had to anneal the plate after that.  I mounted the guide back on the hammer and aligned everything as accurately as I could manage with shims.  I made a tool to transfer punch the holes from the cast frame to the wrap-around guide.  Once drilled, the bolts slid right into place and with the shims I had made the ram moved very smoothly in the ways.  I believe that problem is solved.  I have a little bit of shimming to make it perfect, but I am encouraged by the progress.  The hammer runs with good control.  

I have one lingering issue to deal with.  I am having trouble verifying it, but the centerline of the toggle arms, toggle links, and ram do not appear to my eye to be coplanar.  In other words,  I think the connecting links are raked slightly backwards towards the frame.  As ever, I don't know how to verify this.  With all the slop in the wrist pins and crosshead, it doesn't appear to affect the motion.  

[Adair]

[kubiack]

Good job on the fix.