Bronze welding rod

[yves]

A client wants me to integrate 36 (1/4 inch diameter, 36 inches long) bronze welding rods which are covered in a flux in the design of a balustrade as a decoration.

 

The label on the tubes reads as follows : 

 

Altem superior Bronze. Heat nº 175.

 

I have two questions and a request :

1. Can someone tell me from the label quoted if this bronze can be forged. I have no experience with bronze but read here that some bronzes cannot and others cannot easily be forged. 
2. If this bronze can be forged, how does one get rid of the flux?
3. If this bronze can be forged, please give indications on the forging process : color of the heat and what type of reaction to expect or forged cold and annealed.

I have been through most of the appropriate topics I believe, but I'm still left with these questions. If there are answers already on here, please point to them.

 

Thanks,

 

Yves

[doc]

The flux can probably be chipped off by lightly hammering and wire brushing in that order. As far as forging try a piece and find out.

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Yves,

 

Remove the flux before forging..  A simple scraping will do with some light sandpaper after...  You can order them without flux so I would check with your supplier..  As to forging I have done many before and I will pass on my method ..  Forge at a dull red..  I prefer a dark room so that I can better see the color.. When the stock looses its dull red color STOP FORGING.. and reheat..  Your hammer will tell you also.. You will feel a thud and the material is ready to reheat.. If you continue to forge the bronze will crumble.  Try a piece and you will see..  I just do it by feel of the hammer..  Bronze adds some great elements in our work so have fun..  I wish you well

 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[arftist]

Can't get it too hot either. 950-1150F for most bronze is ideal but they all vary.

[yves]

Thanks for the answers.

 

I'll explain to the  client that he will only have 34 rods left ...

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Should be able to cold work it after annealing.

[ironman186]

Hi Yves 

 

If you have any problems with the unknown bronze alloy ? Try Atlas metal sales in Denver 

they are great to work with .Silicon Bronze forges easily ,and do keep it in the dull red zone .

I forge alot of larger stock for handrails etc .You will enjoy it .Hope this helps 

[yves]

Ironman,

 

Thanks for your reply. The bronze rods are part of what is left from the blacksmith shop of my client's father who died more than 20 years ago. He had had these rods for quite a while if I rely on the tubes' sticker's style. I do not have more info than what I have quoted in the first post.

 

I am still in the beginning of the design process and I have another involved job to finish prior to giving this one all my attention. If and when I do integrate these rods in the design, I'll let you and all of you who gave me answers know what I propose to the client.

 

Thanks again.

[Frosty]

Should be able to cold work it after annealing.

 

Yes but only briefly, bronze work hardens faster than you'd believe and when it starts to that's it, it's done.

 

I wasn't going to say this but seeing as cold working came up I'll risk confusing the situation. Father always told me and other guys spinning, "Take it as far as possible on the first pass, you'll only get three before you have to anneal, push one more and it'll come apart." That's a paraphrase of course but Ive found it to  be true of any copper alloy that isn't by far mostly copper, say above 95%.

 

First blow heaviest hammer and as hard as you can hit it. Second blow pretty darned hard but it's starting to fight you. The third blow will act like it's not happy but will probably behave. Fourth blow and it'll almost certainly fail.

 

I have more experience forging brass (brazing rod) which follows the 3 blow rule to a T. I've only forged new stock bronze (brazing rod) a couple times and it seemed to behave the same way. I didn't push the bronze at all, annealed at 3 every time and was reasonably successful.

 

My luck forging bronze hot sucks, I'm don't want to talk about it. <sniff>

 

I don't know if Pete Fels is still subbed but he forges bronze a lot. If he doesn't pipe up I'll ask and see what he says.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[yves]

Frosty,

 

From all the answers I get here and your's, of course, I will have to keep it simple : no involved forging like "Cs". The client also wants me to integrate a sheet of stainless steel. I am thinking of simply bending the rods at the ends, tap the ends and bolt them to that sheet a sort of sun ray arrangement.

 

As mentioned earlier, I'll get a couple of hese rods and try bending hot and cold and see how far I can get.

 

When I started this I was enthousiastic about using the bronze. I am not so sure now. I'll find a way though. The client realy would like this. And to me it's a challendge.

 

I believe the problem comes from not knowing what kind of alloy the rods are made of. Not that that would help me mind you but it would help you in your generous answers. 

 

I'll try and experiment next week. I'll let you know.

[Frosty]

Yves: It's just a new metal, you have the skill you just have to learn how it works. Just figure a couple are sacrificial and experiment. Once you get it's feel you'll be cruising smoothly.  I haven't seen any bad info posted, just play around a little it's not a big deal. I've seen your work, this ain't nothing for you Brother.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[yves]

Frosty,

 

You seem to have somewhat more confidence in my work than I have. I have this (good?) habit of getting involved over my head. I'm sort of always insecure as to bringing the job to completion. Some anguish. But I guess I like it.

 

Spoke with the client to-day and I will pick up a few rods. I also submitted a proposition. I'm waiting for his response. We'll see. Like you said I'll experiment and see what I can do.

 

Thanks for the compliment. 

 

Yves

[Frosty]

I just calls em like I sees em Yves. I've seen your work and I've beaten a little brass and bronze. It's just something you haven't done yet, you'll get the feel for it faster than you'll believe. Try this for practice. Cold forge a couple bronze nails, that won't use much stock and it'll show you just how far you can work it before you have to anneal.

 

I think all of us have some anxiety jumping into a new project, material or situation for the first time.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Sweany]

 I googled Altem superior Bronze. Heat nº 175.

 

I had to take out the word superior and the heat no. Before I got a hit.

 

 

http://pnumbers.com/onlinepackages/fmc/csp-fmc-material.asp?classId=1541

 

This composition seems to go by several trade names. Your rod seems to be the 4th one down on the list.

hope this helps.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

If no involved forging, what about just scrolling, and other bending types of shaping? This would keep things relatively easy work wise, and can look quite nice.

[yves]

Sweany,

 

I thought I was patient ...

 

Thanks

[Sweany]

U are welcome. :)

[Frosty]

If no involved forging, what about just scrolling, and other bending types of shaping? This would keep things relatively easy work wise, and can look quite nice.

 

Sure but it's not so much how involved it is that counts it's how many times you form it between annealing. It follows the same general rules of work hardening in it needs to be moved to it's deformation point. It's tricky in how quickly it work hardens but if you're bending by hand you'll feel it for sure unless you're a knuckle dragging ape with great big muscles and the subtlety of a politician at a fund raiser.

 

All funnin aside it hardens really quickly, you'd have to be using a power tool and not paying attention to miss it.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[yves]

Reporting back.

 

The bronze rods with flux : .

 

I cleaned them with  and with .

 

Then I forged them : cold was horror, 3 blows of the hammer and the bronze crumbled ; heated with a small gaz toch to a cherry red, it was like butter and a pleasure to shape. It did not last long though. Had to reheat very quickly.

[Frosty]

Looks like you got the feel for bronze rod. What do you think?

 

More importantly, what does the customer think?

 

Frosty The Lucky.