would this die work?

[nicole]

Hi All,

I just made a smithin magician clone and want to make a die set for it that would let me slit stock so that I could then have a starting point for drifting some holes in it, or use it to set up for making a basket twist, for example..

I attach my crude sketch; the idea is to have the central "chisel" terminate in a 60 degree angle, but the "shank" is more or less straight..  it would accept stock as large as 1 x 1" though I do not foresee doing anything nearly that heavy.   I can just make it and try it, but I figure someone has probably looked at this.  thanks for any comments!

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Nicole,

 

I think with that design you would find it difficult to work with...  The top die would stick in your stock and cooling the tooling would be an additional problem..  It would also be difficult to control how deep the set...  Just my 2c..  I am spoiled and do that type of work on my fly press where I can adjust the tooling depth.

 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[HWooldridge]

I built a power hammer die similar to this by drilling two holes side by side in a horizontal figure 8 - and it does work to make a feature which looks like 4 rods. You need to relieve front and back of the die or the ends will bite into the stock and leave jagged cuts.

[Frosty]

I've made rope dies after Mark, the Metalmangler showed me how and it's pretty simple. First I made a flat spring die, then used round stock bent double to forge the rope die into it. For 3/4" rope use 3/8" round bent double. 1/2" rope is made with 1/4" round bent double, etc. OR you can simply forge the bent master into each half of the spring die THEN match them up, weld on the spring and finish them.

 

Final finish by easing all the corners and edges so they don't make cold shuts.

 

This die forges the square stock on all faces and corners with a result looking just like 4 round sections touching/connected longitudinally.

 

I think stock driven into a die with square sections may want to jam. However as the die warms and the stock cools it may just drop out. . . Maybe <grin>

 

The short answer though is, yeah I'm you can make a die like that work, it just may take some tweaking.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Stephen Olivo]

That would work but you are better off separating the stops and the fences from the working part of the tool.  You will want an adjustable fence if you want to use it on different sizes and if your wanting to groove something and pierce something else then you want a stop that you can adjust the depth on.  or you could just make them as you need them for each project that you do.  Often it is easier to make a tool that does one particular thing than one that does a lot. 

[nicole]

Jim, Frosty thanks for the forewarning about things getting "stuck".. thinking it through, a straight shank is what I would design if I wanted it to get stuck- tweaking is something I like to do.. so out with the straight shank. If I put a bit of a taper on it a little tap tap should free the part (wishful thinking)  I will try this..HW, thank for that sideways 8 point- I had seen that and it was my inspiration for making this sideways  square profiled die.  I will be sure to relieve corners and all but cutting edge!  Frosty thanks for the rope-die design, I need to think through it a bit more.  Jim, Stephen thanks for the points about controlling position and depth.  I could probably make a small set of little saddles that will control depth.  And position, for now, will be based on my incredible sense of aim hehehehe.  Thanks for your help guys!  I will post a photo if I get something that works!

N

[nicole]

Well the verdict is in.  Not good, overall.   I was able to chisel a slit in 1/8 stock, and there was no problem with sticking (too thin to stick I guess!) when I went up to the thicker stuff. 3/8, and a railroad spike...not too much action- poor penetration into the stock.  I milled the chisel parts at a 91 degree angle to put a very slight taper on them, then I hand ground the very tip to approximately 60 degrees.

 

  I took a look at my 4140 die and found the chisel points had bent.  From the pic you can see they got pretty warm too.  The dies were not heat treated. I am pretty sure this needs to be rethought ..

[Judson Yaggy]

In blacksmithing 4140 is a good tough genaral purpose steel when used in fairly thick sections.   For thinner tools it needs to be cooled every 3 or 4 blows to not overheat, so it works for something like a hand chisel that you can quickly dunk and get right back to work.  I bet your guillotine dies are hard to cool every 3 blows.  Try a specialty steel like S-7 or H-13 for thin tools doing hot work.  

[HWooldridge]

I happen to have a lot of H13 and use it for slitting chisels. It holds up well when hot and can be driven deeply when punching or cutting. You might be able to salvage your die in a couple of ways - one would be to straighten out the existing blades and use it only for marking; once the basic lines are cut in the stock, the cuts are completed with a separate chisel. You could also insert the blades as hot work chisels (using S7 or H13 as Judson suggested) and either tack weld into place or lock with set screws. You can then replace the cutting edges when necessary and save the 4140 die blocks.

[John B]

 

  I took a look at my 4140 die and found the chisel points had bent.  From the pic you can see they got pretty warm too.  The dies were not heat treated. I am pretty sure this needs to be rethought ..bummer.jpg

 

Ignoring the material issue,  You will have problems with that design.

 

IMHO There is no great rigidity in this set up, any slight movement and the points are not going to line up,

 

And as you are balancing the bar on the bottom tool, if this is not perfectly square to the blade, it will twist and misalign them, which is what you have found out,

 

If this tool is just for lining in pre forging, you only need 1/8" cutting depth to mark your bar,  this also helps in dissipating the heat from the tools edge

 

You don't need a bottom blade, a guide bar/spacer would be more advantageous to get a repeated centre line or an offset, the bottom die just needs to be anvil like, and then you can mark it from four sides.

 

It is also much more versatile as there are many other options it can then be used for.

 

Start thinking blacksmithing solutions rather than engineering methods, 

[VaughnT]

What John said.

 

The bottom should be a flat anvil.  Otherwise, the force of your blow is being divided between the two cuts.  You say you only got a little depth on each one.... but that's because you stole from one chisel to give to another.  Make sense?

 

I would have made the top chisel half again as wide at the base than it is.  A strong taper isn't a problem because all of the work is being done at the cutting edge, so to speak.  Yes, you'll have a bit of friction against the sides of the hole as you go deeper, but you'll also have a far stronger wedge-shaped chisel.

 

Put a fence or stop on the bottom die so you can get a quick and repeatable placement of your hot stock.  You'll never have to worry about the other sides not lining up because the fence doesn't move until the work is finished.

[nicole]

Hi Judson, thanks for the recommendation on using a more suitable steel. I will look into H13- HW I like the idea of salvaging the dies and will think about making some insert tooling.. this should cost a heck of a lot less too.  John your analysis makes a lot of sense to me. I guess I had to make and try the tool without premonition to get this far :)  Ridding the bottom piece and making it flat with a guide or spacer is great!  My original design intent was simply to be able to simultaneously mark two sides, cutting down on the work.  Being neither smith nor engineer but somewhat lazy I thought this attractive.  Vaughn, I will redo that top part and give it some beef, and as per others suggestions make it from something that does not mind heat.  All- I really appreciate your collective wisdom and help with this!

N

[Eddie Mullins]

I can very much relate to this thread having recently built my first giullotine and begining to explore different die options. I also enjoy making tooling and experimenting if you will. As has been pointed out to me, tool making is done in iterations, make one, improve it and repeat as needed. This was a good 1st attempt and even better learning oportunity. I'm lookng forward to seeing your revision.

[nicole]

Thanks Eddie, I am not done yet :)  The next iteration will be simpler and stronger..

N

[ianinsa]

Nicole,
This may sound counter intuitive but!

Make "sample " dies with mild steel, cool them during use with a "squirt-sprayer"(think soap spray of dish soap mixed with water) for the test use to sort out the shape and profile. This allows you to experiment whilst not breaking the bank, when you get it close to the right shape& profile then remake it with the "right stuff " this helps to enlarge but not enrich your scrap pile.

Ian