DavidTodtman Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 I am going to build a propane gas forge using a Ron Reil style burner. My current need is to forge a bunch of finials on the spindle ends of a 'wrought iron' fence I am going to put across my front yard. For this project the matieral is not that big. In this case the spindles will be 5/8" square stock; I'll be heating maybe a 2 or 4 inch lenght of that stock. That's pretty typical of what I have worked with in the past (heated with my oxy/acetylene torchg). So this gives a sense of the size of forge that would meet my needs for this and my past projects. But I have a couple of questions. First, I have a length of steel pipe and wonder if it would serve as the body for a small forge. The pipe is 6 1/2" ID. I have read that I should use 2" of refractory insulation inside the forge body. Even though I don't want a large forge, I think the finished forge would be too "mini." Comments on this welcome. Another question I have is, how does one light a gas forge? Oxy/acetylene sparker? Flame from a propane soldering torch? A final question is where can I purchase refractory materials(e.g., Kaowool) in Canada (Calgary, Alberta). I see in my local yellow pages that there are a couple of industrial suppliers here in Calgary and I plan to give them a call to see if they will deal with me. There is a place in Ontario--Profarrier--that will mail order to me it appears. I wonder if there are other alternatives within Canada? Thanks in advance, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Welcome aboard David, glad to have you. If you put your general location in the header you may be surprised at how many of the IFI gang live within visiting distance. If you're going to make a 3/4" EZ you want the chamber to be about 300 cu/in volume. Much tighter and back pressure will really inhibit the burner's performance. A piece of 6" dia. steel pipe isn't a very workable shell, even if you make it long enough to meet the volume it's way too tight. A 5gl steel bucket with enough Kaowool or the equivalent to make volume is preferable. I really like single wall stainless steel stove pipe. It can be worked with basic tools: hand drill, bits, a hole saw and pop rivets. I like SS because it reflects a lot more IR than steel so more heat stays in the forge. On a last note, not to discourage you from building a forge and getting yourself properly addicted to the craft, you don't really need a gas forge if all you want to do for this project is make finials. A Hibachi, charcoal and a blow drier will be more than enough to heat 5"+ of your pickets. While not ideal you can even use briquettes for simple heating, drawing down and bending. This suggestion will draw shocked howls of protest against briquettes but they'll work just fine for non critical heating. Go ahead gang, fire away I can take it. <grin> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Keyes Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 One old standby is an old propane tank, or a helium tank from a party store. You want a burn chamber about 6-8 inches AFTER the fiber. Figuring 4 inches total of insulation you need a 10 to 12 interior diameter. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodge Posted February 3, 2014 Share Posted February 3, 2014 Don't forget the good ol freon tank.The smaller ones yield a chamber about 5 1/2" diam x about 9" deep after lining, or a little over 200 cubic inches. A 3/4" burner is more than it needs but you can turn it down, and I believe a smaller burner just wouldn't be enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTodtman Posted February 4, 2014 Author Share Posted February 4, 2014 Thanks, guys, for the answers and the welcome to the forum. Your answers got me a lot closer to understanding the burner::internal volume issue and I know what I am looking for in a shell now. I think I will zip over to the local metal scrap yard to see what they might have in the way of pipe, square tube, and/or cylinders. Frosty: no one gave you a hard tie about the habichi forge with hair dryer bellows. I guess that means they all fully agree with you! What a nice and well behaved group here. <grin> David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 Thanks, guys, for the answers and the welcome to the forum. Your answers got me a lot closer to understanding the burner::internal volume issue and I know what I am looking for in a shell now. I think I will zip over to the local metal scrap yard to see what they might have in the way of pipe, square tube, and/or cylinders. Frosty: no one gave you a hard tie about the habichi forge with hair dryer bellows. I guess that means they all fully agree with you! What a nice and well behaved group here. <grin> David Naw Dave; the hibachi and blow drier are pretty standard kit, it was the charcoal briquettes I was expecting to be pilloried about. The boys must be feeling forgiving. <grin> Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 · Hidden by Steve Sells, June 16, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Steve Sells, June 16, 2014 - No reason given Check out my tutorial on my web-site at the Forge Supplies page. You can e-mail me if you have other questions and let me know if I can help you. Link to comment
VaughnT Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 David, probably the single best home-built general-purpose forge design I've ever seen, by Rodger Melton: http://www.hybridburners.com/forge-comments.html A simple sheet metal body, the angles allow you the burner to enter the chamber at an angle and create a swirling flame. The chamber is large enough for any realistic project you might have come up, but it's only running on 5psi. That's fantastic. Note how he's got 2" of batt insulation covered by a castable cement-type refractory, for strength. The floor has an inch of batt insulation, but he uses a bit of hard brick for durability. Easy to build. No welding needed. Very efficient. This is my next project! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil-Forge Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 The same gas burners with better performance and cheaper here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted February 5, 2014 Share Posted February 5, 2014 On lighting my aspirated gas forge: I turn on the gas bottle and light a wooden kitchen match and toss it at the enterance to the forge. Whoosh! On lighting my blow forge: turn on the air and shut the air baffle to zero. Turn on the gas and toss a match towards the opening. Whoosh; add air in to get the burn you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Keyes Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I use a self lighting propane torch. Light the torch, turn on the fan, hold the flame near the forge entrance, turn on the gas. If you turn on the gas first, you get some pooling and a WHOMP. Fan, torch, gas, little pop, no fuss. Geoff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbmartin Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 David, I bought my insulation material from plainsman clay in Medicine Hat. Kaowool and cement cost 40 dollars for my propane forge. Still looking for itc-100 though. That's going to be the expensive part. I also used a 5 gallon air tank I bought from princess auto as my shell. Cheers, Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swedefiddle Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Hi David. There are a few excellent Blacksmiths' in your town. You should introduce yourself to them, they don't bite. John, Mark & Doug They have forgotten more than you will ever know. Try Western Canadian Blacksmith Guild (North, South and Saskatoon) Neil Gustafson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WayneCoeArtistBlacksmith Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 You can use Plistix or Metrikote in place of the ITC-100 for a lot less. Self promotion removed. If you just wish to share information, you should post it here, rather than at off site places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTodtman Posted February 8, 2014 Author Share Posted February 8, 2014 Thanks again folks for the responses. I now know how to light a forge and much more. Thank you Taylor Martin for pointing me to the ceramics and kiln supplier in Medicine Hat. I will give them a call on Monday. I also found a similar outfit in Ontario what will mail order too. Taylor: do you live in Calgary? As for forge body, I went to the scrap yard yesterday--Federal Metals, Calgary--and found a nice hunk of pipe (oil/gas transmission type) with a 10 inch diameter. I passed it up, however in favour of a 5 gal portable compressed air cylinder from Princess Auto. It's a lighter shell and I will be putting my forge up on a shelf in between uses. Ciao, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbmartin Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 David, Nope I'm down in the hat, check out my post on my forge build to see what that tank looks like. I thought about making a third door along the side on the whole tank, so I could pass large and long pieces through. But I think I will make another clamshell forge if I get to that point.'?do=embed' frameborder='0' data-embedContent>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTodtman Posted February 9, 2014 Author Share Posted February 9, 2014 Taylor: Ah, you live in the Hat. Thank you for pointing me to the thread on your forge build. I agree with the complements you were given. I might 'complement' you further by copying elements of your build. I like the door/hatch and sliding forgement rest. Question though: do you think you'll get a good seal between the main-body insulation and hatch/door insulation? I would like to make a font hatch/door like yours. I think I will swing door/hatch to the side for mine. But I do have concerns about heat loss or even burner flame escaping from the rim where the hatch meets the main body. If anyone else is able to comment on this too, I would be grateful. Best, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tbmartin Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 So far with just the kaowool there is a tight fit on the front hatch. That being said I layered up the front pretty well to get it even. Once I put the cement in that could creat a whole different seal though. I was thinking of putting a layer of wax paper between the hatch and main body and then cement right up to the edge to hopefully get a nice tight surface. I will let you know if I succeed or if there are any shoulda done different ideas. I made the slide out of half inch ss tubing. Pretty solid but if I need to upgrade to solid round stock that will be no problem. Look forward to seeing your forge! Taylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motrhed Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 David, I bought my insulation material from plainsman clay in Medicine Hat. Kaowool and cement cost 40 dollars for my propane forge. Still looking for itc-100 though. That's going to be the expensive part. I also used a 5 gallon air tank I bought from princess auto as my shell. Cheers, Taylor I purchased ITC-100 from Seattle Pottery Supply, easy to deal with and shipped it right to my door west of Edmonton. They were the closest supplier that I could locate to Alberta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motrhed Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 A final question is where can I purchase refractory materials(e.g., Kaowool) in Canada (Calgary, Alberta). I see in my local yellow pages that there are a couple of industrial suppliers here in Calgary and I plan to give them a call to see if they will deal with me. There is a place in Ontario--Profarrier--that will mail order to me it appears. I wonder if there are other alternatives within Canada? Thanks in advance, David I just read this post, if you are still looking for a blanket supplier in the Calgary area... There are many companies in Calgary that use ceramic blanket (Kaowool) to build removable thermal blankets for industrial valves and fittings (oilfield process, power generation, ship engines, etc). Try contacting SUM Canada, they would probably sell you the small quantity that you would need. If they won't/can't there are a few other blanket makers in town plus pipe insulating companies sometimes use Kaowool in certain applications and there are literally hundreds of pipe insulator companies in Alberta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTodtman Posted April 5, 2014 Author Share Posted April 5, 2014 I just read this post, if you are still looking for a blanket supplier in the Calgary area... There are many companies in Calgary that use ceramic blanket (Kaowool) to build removable thermal blankets for industrial valves and fittings (oilfield process, power generation, ship engines, etc). Try contacting SUM Canada, they would probably sell you the small quantity that you would need. If they won't/can't there are a few other blanket makers in town plus pipe insulating companies sometimes use Kaowool in certain applications and there are literally hundreds of pipe insulator companies in Alberta. Thanks Motrhed. I had to take a project detour and am getting ready to get back to the forge project. It does make sense that there would be a lot of companies in Cow Town that work with this material. I just looked at the SUM website and they do carry Kaowool. Thanks again for the lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted April 6, 2014 Share Posted April 6, 2014 About the Kaowool or equivalent ceramic blanket. It comes in different temperature ratings a forge needs the 2,600f 1" 8lb. or it isn't going to last long, maybe not through the first firing. My NA propane forge will melt 3,000f fire brick under the burner is I leave it running at high psi long. Using a good kiln wash is a really good way to keep the kaowool good for a LOT longer. If you google "kiln wash" you'll find products and suppliers all over the place. Look for a company that maintains and rebuilds industrial furnaces, heating and such, they'll carry high temp. rated ceramic blanket. Better, they tend to LIKE fire the hotter the better so talking forges with the guys is a good thing. Not only will you learn good stuff they just might give you rems from jobs. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motrhed Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Thanks Motrhed. I had to take a project detour and am getting ready to get back to the forge project. It does make sense that there would be a lot of companies in Cow Town that work with this material. I just looked at the SUM website and they do carry Kaowool. Thanks again for the lead. Hey David, I had an issue with the blanket in my forge (not rated high enough - long story) and had to purchase some new 1" Kaowool. I found that most industrial insulation outfits (SUM Canada, etc) do not use Kaowool ceramic blanket anymore as a newer/lighter product called Aerogel is the new norm. This new Aerogel is hydrophobic so it won't work to well in a forge as the rigidizer, ITC-100, etc will not bond to it. I located and purchased the proper spec of Kaowool in Edmonton at Brock White (Insulation Division) 12959-156St. (780) 452-4710. Hope this helps... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidTodtman Posted May 17, 2014 Author Share Posted May 17, 2014 Here are pictures of my completed forge. This shows the forge from the side including the gas delivery manifold. The manifold slides in for storage. It slides out for operation--to keep the minfold away from the hot forge body. (I know preheated gas might be advantageous but.....) The second picture shows the upper portion of my burner. It works very well I think. The 1/8" brass nipple runs through a 3/8" shaft collar. The collar has a set screw and I used that to secure the position of the tip once it seemed properly positioned. This burner was quick to make and dead easy to ensure the tip was centred. I tig welded this but I think it could be oxy/aceteline brazed or maybe even silver soldered with a propane solderning torch. Other pictures of my forge--earlier stages--can be seen in previous post here. Other pictures: one is a front shot. The other shows the interior. I used a kiln fire brick for the forge floor. The brick was soft enough to shape with a drywall saw and rasp to fit the bottom of the forge. I will have to see if the brick stands up to use. I used the forge today for about 45 min to shape two blanks for a set of forge tongs. The tong blanks are a little crude but with some grinding and filing will be just fine for a first forge project. Best, David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted May 18, 2014 Share Posted May 18, 2014 Hey David, I had an issue with the blanket in my forge (not rated high enough - long story) and had to purchase some new 1" Kaowool. I found that most industrial insulation outfits (SUM Canada, etc) do not use Kaowool ceramic blanket anymore as a newer/lighter product called Aerogel is the new norm. This new Aerogel is hydrophobic so it won't work to well in a forge as the rigidizer, ITC-100, etc will not bond to it. I located and purchased the proper spec of Kaowool in Edmonton at Brock White (Insulation Division) 12959-156St. (780) 452-4710. Hope this helps... Motrhed: I don't know a lot about Aerogel but from what I've seen it's virtually pure silica so it wouldn't live long in contact with hot flux. However I believe it would bake a terrific backer, just not the fire contact surface. I'll be tuned in and hoping someone who uses or at least knows about aerogels chimes in. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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