Spruce Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Alright, I have built 2 forges now, 2 different styles, and 2 different type burners. Neither got hot enough. The first one I built was out of an air tank - had 2 Z burners in it - the ones with the ward reducing T. It would get metal to dull orange, or bright orange after a while, but never yellow or above. It seemed like the burners were working well - had a nice shaped flame, could make it reducing or oxidizing - had 2 inches of kaowool, and then the whole thing coated in plistix (I think that's what I tried that time). Anyway, I didn't like it, because I found there were things I couldn't fit in it, so I redesigned to the below contraption. As you can see, this one is pretty small, with 2 Frosty style burners. Probably too small for 2 burners, but I XXXX sure wanted to get hot, so I went with overkill. Back pressure may be an issue now, but I still get good looking flame - anywhere from reducing to oxidizing. I've found this forge to work better than my last - gets hotter, quicker, and I like the square shape - seems to fit things nicely, and I can open it up to fit larger things in, kind of like a Diamondback forge. The burners have stainless flares on the end. I just tried to get two pieces of 3/8 round bar up to forge welding temperature - just to see if I could, and to try to learn to forge weld. I absolutely cranked the propane regulator open - unfortunately I couldn't tell you the PSI because my regulator didn't come with a gauge. In any case, it was absolutely roaring - getting a blue flame maybe 6 inches long - hitting the floor of the forge and curling to the sides. Had quite a bit of yellow dragons breath. It still behaved kind of like normal - gets up to orange pretty quickly, but I have to leave stuff a long time to get to bright orange. I left them in there for a good 5 or 8 minutes, and got them up to bright orange, or maybe dull yellow, but certainly not bright yellow, or white, or hot enough for sparks to jump off. At this point I'm kind of sick of building forges - I would rather have one awesome forge which worked, which would always get my metal hot enough, or even too hot enough if I wasn't careful - I feel like I've done quite a bit of forging at lower temperatures than ideal - it would be nice to be able to start my forging at the yellow, but I can't get it to that. I'm now wishing I had just ordered hybrid burners, so I was done with it. Any suggestions folks? I'm not really sure what my next step should be. I may just order two hybrid burners, and build some sort of brick pile forge, so that I can make it any shape I want and just be done with it. Thanks in advance, Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Would your regulator be one for a turkey frier? is so problem found....most of them do not flow enough,,or have a guage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Hard to judge colour in a gasser; you might try heating two rods up and rubbing them together in the forge to see if they will stick. If so you are getting a welding heat. Note I've melted steel in my single burner propane forge with never a spark jumping off---that tends to be solid fuel forge behavior in my experience if you have a neutral to rich burn in your gas forge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Greetings Spruce, Rich / Yep wrong regulator .... I would never start a gasser without knowing the pressure... What's yours?? Am I seeing things or is this a single burner ? The steel lines to the burner look small .. What size is the ID.. I see a 1/4 flex hose but the steel lines ???? After you verify and correct the above problems ... Try a block up partial fire brick on the rear... I hope this helps... Watch your back side... Forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 When was the last time you had your gauge calibrated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Coke Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Greetings Thomas , I have 4 gassers ... I just have one new gauge that I switch out and check an then just put it back... The cost of calibration far exceeds the cost of a new one.. I do the same with oxy/ace torches and have never found a bad one yet ... Your right you just never know... forge on and make beautiful things Jim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 None of my three have guages that are anywheree near accurate...however they did when neew or buiilt and I learned to use them then..not crank up or down to get wot I want Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I learned to adjust my forge by ear and eye for the burn I want and never trust a gauge more than as a "suggestion" I travel with them enough I know they they are getting shook up on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yahoo2 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 it sounds like you are running far too rich. Have you read Ron's troubleshooting page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 The regulator I have is supposed to run from 0 to 30 PSI I believe, from memory. It is not just a regular fryer or barbecue regulator. I think my copper lines are 1/8" - they have a larger ID than the 1/8" schedule 80 pipe nipple that I tapped for the mig tip. Come to think of it, I don't know what the XXXX they measure as 1/8" on 1/8" lines, but the ID is a lot bigger than 1/8". In any case, it seems to flow plenty of gas - if I can put this thing on absolute jet engine roar, then gas flow isn't my problem, is it? And it is indeed a 2 burner - the picture is just taken from xxxx xxxx in front, so you can only see one. Here is a side view: Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 Yahoo2 - running too rich you say? Maybe so... I thought that after my last round of tweaking - moving my mig tips up inside the T, and with the chokes open, that it couldn't possibly be running rich - but if I was tweaking a torch, I would think it was rich - I want a smaller, more intense flame, not just more flame. To get it to run leaner, I should move my mig tips back even further inside the T, correct? I have read Ron Reil's web page several times, and looked at the photos showing the different flames - but, it's hard to tell exactly what's going on in the photos - cameras seem to have a hard time picking up the subtelties of flame - maybe this is where I'm going wrong. Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 · Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Hmm, wasn't aware I was sounding offensive. Sorry about that - won't happen anymore. Would be nice to get off moderator queue - I like the timeliness of responses I always seem to get on IFI and this will certainly slow things down. Spruce If you were to have read the staff PM's that were sent to you when the warnings were assigned, then perhaps you would have avoided this before now. Link to comment
Frosty Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Okay, on to your burner. I didn't take calipers to my screen but it looks like you have a 5", maybe 6" nipple under the "T". There is a set of ratios to making these burners work well, based on the "throat." The throat is the narrowest part of the tube, usually where it narrows from the air intake. The tube length should be 12 x the bore diameter. For a 3/4 burner, .75x12= 9" not including the flare. This isn't a hard ratio but it's the one used in commercial burners. I've found 8-9" works well for a 3/4" tube. Using too short a tube means the propane and air don't mix very well. Though propane is a gas it behaves like a mist of small droplets so it needs some time in the tube to help it mix. If the air fuel doesn't mix well you'll get areas of the flame that are too rich and others that are too lean so you can have lots of dragon's breath and still make scale. A short tube also means less entrainment to you have to use a smaller jet and or hold it farther back in the T for a less than optimum burner, even if it's adjusted correctly. The flame in the pic looks to be a little richer than I like but it's well formed and close so you have the jet well aligned and it's burning pretty well. What diameter mig tips are you using? I use 1/4" copper to the burner itself and 3/8" pipe from the regulator to the manifold. The larger diameter pipe holds more volume so you don't get a pressure drop that differs between burners. You have your plumbing in series so on burner is first in line of supply and the second is going to suffer a pressure drop. If you replumb it so there is a "T" centered between the burners you won't have different pressure at each one. having everything as equal as possible makes the whole a lot easier to adjust and you won't get changes hen you raise or lower the pressure. Both get an equal bite of the pie whatever the regulator pressure and both will be happier. I plumb my mig tips using a brass 1/8" MPT to 1/4" flare. I take the correct drill bit for tapping 1/4"-28 and use it as a gauge to select the 1/8" MPT end of thee fitting so the 1/4"x28 tap fits properly and I don't have to chase it or do something fancy to thread it for the mig tip. This lets me drill and tap the "T" fitting 1/8" MPT and screw the brass fitting in from the top. don't tap it very deep the "T" isn't very thick so you want the tapered pipe threads to bottom out on the hex section of the brass fitting while the threads are still pulling. You don't want ANY wobble. so, with the brass fitting tapped 1/4"x28 (that's FINE) on the 1/4"MPT end of the fitting the mig tip will screw right in and the whole unit will thread into the "T". don't make it more than snug or it'll strip the brass fitting because the "T" is so thin. Then it's just a matter of flaring the 1/4" copper tubing and putting it together. Oh yeah, don't forget to put the flare nut on the tubing BEFORE you flare it! That's all I can think of with what I know about your set up. It looks like you've done a workmanly job but didn't have or understand some of the basic principles of induction burners. No big thing, everybody has to figure them out, Ron and I spent more than a year brainstorming and tweaking the things. So, try putting a longer nipple on them 8-9" and see how they work. OR plumbing them so they have even supply lines and see how that works. Remember when trouble shooting or tuning, do ONE thing and test it. If you start changing more than one thing at a time you'll NEVER be able to track down what did what without going back to square one. TAKE NOTES! I'll keep track of this thread or you can PM me and I'll do what I can for you. I don't check my comp every day so be patient with me. Oh and tomorrow is a club meeting so I'll check again Sunday. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 · Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Spruce it is a kind of new wave of moderation here that shows them telling you in your posts about the rules...Not long back they never did that that I can remember. I think it is a great idea and it seems to me like they tossed people off the forum for the same thing..and at times if I remember correctly that happened on the first occurence. You are right about this being a great place to learn ,,and in many cases with real fast technical help from folks that really know how to help. Link to comment
Spruce Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 · Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Yep, I saw the reason under that last post. But, because it takes so long for me respond now, others have posted up the reason before any of my responses come through. Also, this is a funny way of carrying on a dialogue. I received emails, but after the mods put me on the queue, and after they edited my posts and put comments under. No time for me to fix anything or heed any warnings. And, in their emails, it said "this is your third warning in 2 months" which was just plain wrong. I've never received any warnings - if I had I would have stopped instantly. And then in the above post, the latest comment says, "If you were to have read the staff PM's that were sent to you when the warnings were assigned, then perhaps you would have avoided this before now." which is also just plain wrong. I've never received a single PM from a moderator. So, to sum it up, I accidentally used a word I shouldn't have, but also didn't know I shouldn't have, in my first post. My bad. Next, I've been placed on a queue, and I posted again, trying to figure out what was wrong, and used another word I shouldn't have, because I still didn't know that that was the problem in the first place. Then, emails came through explaining it, but at this point it's too late. And, the emails were just plain wrong stating that I had been warned twice before. Then the mods placed explanations in comments under my posts, which at this point is moot because now I finally know what the problem is in the first place. And, in the comment they place, they say I should check my PMs, which I had already done, and there are absolutely none from any moderators. Warnings which didn't happen and PMs which don't exist. I think that on the moderator end, they have a little confusion. I have zero problem obeying any of these rules, and now that I know them better, there will be zero issues. But, the mods haven't responded to my emails, and instead the only way I can communicate is through these posts, which they preview first, then place their comments, then air out publicly. Seems like one simple email before any of this started would have fixed the issue. Link to comment
Spruce Posted January 18, 2014 Author Share Posted January 18, 2014 Hey Frosty - I just went and double checked - my 3/4" nipple is 8" long. My mig tips are .035, trimmed down a bit and cleaned up with a torch cleaner. I think I only deviated from your write up a little bit. I tapped the 1/8 pipe nipple for the mig tip, instead of the brass 1/8" MPT to 1/4" flare, and then I threaded the outside of the pipe nipple about an inch up. This way, I can just screw the pipe nipple up or down in the T to tweak it to where I want. Seems to work well, although something isn't adding up. Do you think I should try dropping to .030 mig tips? Or pulling the mig tip back further in the T? Go to 9" nipples instead of 8"? Yeesh - very tweaky little beasts aren't they Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Hale Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 Spruce I just sent you a pm...let me me know if you got it when you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timgunn1962 Posted January 18, 2014 Share Posted January 18, 2014 I've not built a Frosty burner myself. I have been using 0.6mm MIG tips (.024") in burners based on a 1" commercial Venturi injector with a throat around 3/4" in diameter. It looks to be very efficient at inducing air, so I'd expect a home-built burner to need a smaller jet to get a similar air:fuel ratio. The commercial unit has a very progressive choke adjustment as well, so the combination of pressure adjustment and choke adjustment gives very good temperature control; I can get everything from HT soak temperatures up to welding. If it's easy to do, I'd try smaller MIG tips first. Certainly .030" and maybe even .023" If you go for the .023", I'm pretty sure you'll need to rig up a choke arrangement, but it should give you greatly improved temperature control if you go that route. Photos of flames seem to be pretty difficult. I can't get decent ones, but I am a lousy photographer. Video seems to do a better job for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 Got your PM Rich. Replied to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcornell Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 Do your burners have flares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 · Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given First of all, I did reply to iforgeiron. Apparently you guys are the ones who are missing things. Second of all, my online notifications were on - every time I have ever received a PM from an IFI member, it alerted to my private email. Even if it was turned off, it wouldn't matter, because I check my PMs every time I log on. And, even if I didn't check my PMs, it still wouldn't matter, BECAUSE YOU NEVER SENT THEM. How many times do I have to repeat that? Can I get an acknowledge THAT YOU DIDN'T SEND THEM??? They simply don't exist in my inbox, because they were never there. And, as for carrying on in public or not YOU are the ones that started tagging the bottom of my posts INSTEAD of PMs or emails, as stated above. PLEASE SEND A PM OR EMAIL IF THAT IS HOW YOU WANT TO CONTINUE. Otherwise it will be via posts, because that's all you seem to respond to. And, once again, I have no problem with the rules. I made a mistake, which I didn't realize, and every single post since then has been fine, and will continue to be so, now that I realize what the problem is. But again, you reacted first, and explained later. Spruce Link to comment
Spruce Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 Yes, my burners have flares. Spruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spruce Posted January 19, 2014 Author Share Posted January 19, 2014 · Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Ah, I take it back, I emailed admin, instead of iforgeiron. My bad, no wonders you didn't respond. Spruce Link to comment
Glenn Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 · Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Glenn, January 19, 2014 - No reason given I have rec'd your email and will reply via email. Link to comment
Glenn Posted January 19, 2014 Share Posted January 19, 2014 This post has been edited to remove some mod related comments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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