110 or 220?

[chris freeman]

 i'm in the market for a little welder. iv'e had a little 110v 90amp flux core welder in the past and it always through the breaker and it left very dirty welds. to be honest thats the only machine iv'e ever welded with. the types of things i was welding for the most part, were pretty small and it frustratingly did the job. i do weld alot of handles onto billets for forge welding and they come off frequently during forging. i guess i am asking if it would be better if i put in a 220 breaker and plug in my garage which would be very easy, then get a little arc welder or a little gas/flux 220 welder.  the thing is , would i still be able to weld smaller gauge steal as well as bigger welds without blowing the breaker every 30 seconds? i have found several little arc welders on craigslist from 75 to 150 bucks and small migs for 125- 250. i really don't want to spend anymore than 200. i kinda can't right now but i don't have a welder at all right now and i really need one asap.

any suggestions would be great,

-chris

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Chris,,

 

For 200 you could find a used hump back Lincoln stick welder ..   The cheepo mig welders are just that...   You will need 220..  The reason so many are for sale used is they just don't do the job...  Save your money and buy a good Lincoln or miller MIG  ....   Just my 2c...

 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[chris freeman]

thanks for the reply. so, is a humpback stick welder gonna do as good as a job as a decent mig? i know the cheep flux core migs are cheep and don't do the job but iv'e always heard that stick welders are just better.

[Rich Hale]

Your little cheapie flux core will likely weld the handles on billets. Tack them on first and put in forge with tongs...preheat to dull redd and weld em up...

[Jim Coke]

Greetings Again Chris,

 

I have several welders...  I still many times go back to the good old Lincoln ( Red ) that I have had for 30 years... I taught welding in the past and as you can imagine I now after several years of metal work have the best of the best..   I suggest this for you based on your budget and skill level..  Look for a used one that is AC DC .. than go to your local welding suppler for some great books published by Miller and Lincoln..   Do some research on what I am suggesting..

 

Forge on and make beautiful things

Jim

[chris freeman]

jim,

what exactly is AC DC compaired to the average welder? i'm gonna install a 220 outlet in ,my garage to run  my trip hammer. it is a very large motor and really needs to be converted to 220, which it's capable. i will be able to run a  220 welder.

[njanvilman]

Make sure you have the wire size and electrical feed that can handle the load of your welder.  If you are not sure, get an electrician to check out the system.  Better to be sure that to fry something or burn your shop or house down.

[Jim Coke]

Thanx Josh,

 

Chris you need to do some reading and research...   50 amp circuit is normal...  Caution please...

 

Jim

[DSW]

thanks for the reply. so, is a humpback stick welder gonna do as good as a job as a decent mig? i know the cheep flux core migs are cheep and don't do the job but iv'e always heard that stick welders are just better.

 

 

jim,

what exactly is AC DC compaired to the average welder? i'm gonna install a 220 outlet in ,my garage to run  my trip hammer. it is a very large motor and really needs to be converted to 220, which it's capable. i will be able to run a  220 welder.

 

 First you need to understand the difference between what mig and stick can do. For forge work it's probably a non issue, but I'll cover it anyways.

 

Small 110v FC migs are good for between 1/16" and maybe 1/8" at best If you run solid wire and gas, you can go a bit thinner with mig, say 22 ga with practice, but top end is still around 1/8" for good solid welds under real world conditions in the hands of the average hobbyist. 220v migs can do a lot heavier material, based on how powerful they are, but they are well out of your budget, so I'll ignore those at the moment. If you can find a nice used 220v mig in your price range and it works, buy it. I doubt you will find one that inexpensive though. Small 110v migs aren't worth it in my opinion. Go 220v or don't bother on average.

 

Small inexpensive 110v stick units are pretty much worthless. I'm thinking the HF units I see a lot of guys buy. At best you can usually only run 1/16" or 5/64" electrodes and you can do about the same thickness as with a small FC machine, 1/16" to 1/8". Better more expensive inverter based stick units will do up to 1/4", but you are now talking about a $400 machine like a Thermal Arc 95s. Top end inverters like my Maxstar 200 will wring every ounce of available power out of a 110v line, but at close to $1500 used, they aren't anywhere close to your budget. Even with my Maxstar which can run 110v or 220v, I'll run it on 220v power if given the option.

 

220v transformer based stick machines will do 1/16" up when run off a 50 amp or larger circuit. In a pinch the smaller homeowner units will run 3/32" rods on a 30 amp 23-0v dryer circuit. These will easily do 1/16" up to say 3/8" no problem. these machines used are inexpensive and very simple. They are pretty much bullet proof. If it welds, chances are it will keep on welding and your grandkids can still be using it.

 

I regularly see AC only 230v stick machines in the $50-150 range. The "off brand" units like old Craftsmans, Daytons, Montgomery Wards, Century ones ( just to name a few of the more common ones) go much cheaper htan Millers, Hobarts or Lincolns and will do exactly the same things. In many cases the off brands were manufactured by the big name companies and then relabled for private brands. You can also occasionally find AC only industrial units like Dialarcs and Idaelarcs. These are great units and have way more power at the top end than the homeowner units, but usually cost at least $100 more.

 

AC /DC units are more expensive. I regularly see the "off brands" starting at $250 and name brand "homeowner" units running up to $400 used. The industrial AC/DC ones like Idealarcs and Dialarcs tend to be more money, $350-600, though again I've seen them cheaper.

 

 

Now Ac vs AC/DC with stick.

 

AC uses alternating current, so the polarity switches between DC+ and DC- 60 times a second ( in the US) Not all stick rods run well on AC. AC rods have additives designed to keep the arc going when the polarity switches. Also some rods like some hardfacing rods are designed only to be run on DC, so having a DC capable machine opens up more options for you.  With Ac you also avoid issues with magnetism often referred to as "arc blow"  The fact the polarity keeps switching helps eliminate the magnetic interference. 

 

DC rods are typically run DC+. Because they aren't "flipping" back and forth they tend to run smoother. As mentioned you have a wider variety of rods to choose from. A DC capable machine will also let you do basic scratch start tig later if you choose to add the tig torch and gas parts. This lets you do even thinner metals, weld copper, stainless as well as steel and make more precise welds and have more control over filler added. It's possible with tig to make almost invisible welds many times and you don't have the slag to deal with like you do with stick. If you opt to think about tig in the future, it's nice to have an infinitely adjustable machine vs one with "tapped" settings.

 

 

Now is an AC/DC machine worth the extra money? Hard to say. A lot of ships and bridges here were built with AC only stick machines. So have been tons of hobby projects. They are cheap and readily available used. AC/DC offers the best of both worlds. Ac if you need it, and Dc for other things. They are more expensive however. Your budget is a bit low in my opinion. If I was looking for an AC/DC stick machine, I'd want at least $400 in my pocket, though with good hunting on CL you can find some sweet deals out there. On another site I'm on one guy recently picked up a nice industrial Lincoln Idealarc ( the old round topped "tombstone") with 100' leads in good shape for $250 with the old steel wheeled cart. I'd have jumped on that in a heart beat even with 4 stick machines already. That unit was worth at least $600 if not more, so they are out there.

 

If all I was doing was making small tools, welding "handles" onto pieces so I can foreg and not use tongs, I'd have no issues with AC only. If I wanted to use hardfacing rods to do some things or possibly tig in the future, then I'd be on the lookout for an AC/DC unit.

 

One nice thing about most of these old transformer stick machines, if you shop smart, you can get every penny back, if not more most of the time if you choose to sell it later and up grade. At worst, you loose maybe $50-150 on the deal depending on the unit and condition. That kind of money is cheap "rent" for a machine you keep for a few years and then sell. Buy new and you loose a lot if you resell the unit. You can always buy an inexpensive AC only machine and upgrade to an AC/DC one later if you choose. Chances are you will probably not loose much if any money if you bought used to begin with.

[ianinsa]

To DSW, I'm amazed/impressed that you regularly type out these long, thoughtful and detailed answers to questions like this, many would say ''read previous posts or some such''  My take on the welder question would be- depending on where you live and what power costs think about power consumption? I own at least one of most types of welders and yes the most capable are probably the old Miller gold stars however they eat power like mad, and the 160 & 200 inverter use less power than the toaster. Just my $0.02 worth.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

May I suggest enrolling in a local community college welding 101 program. It is a great way to learn welding as well as the differences in the various machines used.

[DSW]

Power use is often touted as a reason for using inverters. I'll agree in a shop environment where they are run daily for long hours those savings add up. Not so true with the small time user or hobbyist.

 

 

I'll use a Monster like an old Miller 330 AB/P ( pretty much your Goldstar) that wants a bit less than 100 amps 230v power to run at "rated" capacity. That's about 23 KW to round it up. That's assuming you run the machine to the wall full time for the whole hour, no breaks. In PA the average cost of electricity is about 13 cents per KWhr so that hour of welding would cost you about $2.99. You'd use less than 1/2 of that if you were say running an old Lincoln buzz box maxing out a 50 amp 230v breaker ( 11.5 KW) . Even less if you aren't pulling full power and then subtract out the actual time used.

 

Even if we say a machine draw 125 amps 230v power,  That's only 29KW or $3.77 running full out nonstop for an hour.

 

So lets say you were running that 330AB/P about 25% of the time, it would cost you a bit less than   75 cents / hour to run that machine. And it would cost you less than  40 cents an hour to run that Lincoln tombstone on 50 amps. Again remember we are maxing out the breaker at "rated" output so I have a fixed usage to work with. On that 330 AB/P "rated" output is 300 amps! Since 1/8" 7018 is run at 125 amps typically and the machine won't trip a 50 amp breaker while doing that, that means you'd be running closer to that $0.40 an hour vs $0.75

 

Now If I pick an inverter ( I'll use my Maxstar 200 because I have the manual on this computer) It draws about 22 amps 230v power to run 150 amps rated output, or about roughly what it would take to run that 1/8" 7018 listed above. It uses 5KW or about 66 cents full out for that whole hour. If you figure the same 25% duty cycle, you end up with like 16 cents to run that machine for an hour, or about roughly 1/2 lets say what that 330 would cost you.

 

 

Now I've seen 330's used as cheap as $250 for the AIrco branded units Miller made, and between $400-900 for the Blue painted Millers used. Compare that to close to the $1500 I bought my Maxstar 200 for used ( new it's over $2500). So lets say that we use the best price on my inverter and the  Middle range on that 330. so we'll call it $800 difference for the math.  At  20 cents an hour you'd need to run my inverter for 4000 hours to break even.  Use the cost of new on my Maxstar and you'd be looking at almost 8000 hours or 4 YEARS of 40 hour weeks 50 weeks a year (2000 hours is what they base a ft job at)

 

 

No way the average small guy will ever recoup a savings based on that.

[DSW]

May I suggest enrolling in a local community college welding 101 program. It is a great way to learn welding as well as the differences in the various machines used.

 

 

I agree 100%.

 

When you add up what it costs for materials, electric, rods, gas etc, not to mention the instruction,  a class is usually stupid cheap.The votech high school  I help out with the night class, at it breaks down to roughly $11.50 an hour for everything. For this you get all the rod you want  to burn and all the 1/4" plate you can use in class. If you are dedicated and use your time well, it's real easy to burn up way more in steel and rods than the class cost you. I have no idea how they manage to do this and still pay an instructor.

[chris freeman]

wow, thanks everybody for the input. i actually am looking into a class at CDC here in CO. my daughter goes there and she's getting the info for me. cool thing is, she want to take the class with me. i'm deffinantly gonna do alot mre reading and reserch before i make a move on what machine to get. if i could jump on something right now i think it would be smart to get an AC stick for now. unless i find a screeming deal on an AC/DC.

thanks again,

chris

[ianinsa]

DSW, I have always thought that you posted valid and well thought through replies, in this case the point I wanted to make was: it's often location dependent! The original poster did not give his! Here my Millers cost about 2k usd(used) my inverters cost me $60 to $70 usd(new) including 'tig' torch. Our power costs increase by 35% annually and we pay way, way more than you do. My ''big'' welders are all 380v 3 pH and the inverters are 220v single phase so here it's a no brainer. I know it's different on your side of the pond. So I appreciate your response anyhow. Ian

[chris freeman]

ok, i have found a linclon225 buzz box for $125, miller thunderbolt HD6 for $175, a Forney AC 225(it says it's a linclon) for $150, and a wards power craft 180 amp for $95. i'm leaning towards the buzz box. i would love to hear some feedback on those.

thanks, chris

[Steve Sells]

The old 225 tombstone is bullet proof

[Jim Coke]

Ya just cant go wrong with the tombstone....  Like I said 30 years and I still use it...

[DSW]

ok, i have found a linclon225 buzz box for $125, miller thunderbolt HD6 for $175, a Forney AC 225(it says it's a linclon) for $150, and a wards power craft 180 amp for $95. i'm leaning towards the buzz box. i would love to hear some feedback on those.

thanks, chris

 

 

Lincoln is a tapped machine, Thunderbolt is a continuous machine if it's the age I'm thinking. I would opt for the Lincoln over the Miller simply based on price. The tiny advantage of the infinite adjustment to me isn't worth the extra $50. It it was AC/DC vs AC, I'd give the nod to the Miller for adjustability, but for AC the advantage is minor.

 

The Powercraft is probably a rebadged Century, which is now owned by Lincoln. Century made the vast majority of Wards and Craftsman machines for years. Not bad little units. I had a Craftsman unit for awhile that could be a close clone to that Wards machine. They had a number of different models, so without a link or picts it's had to say which one it is. Not a bad unit, but the price isn't all that incredible to make me choose it over the Lincoln. If the price was closer to $75 or lower, then maybe.

 

As far as I know Fortney is still in business, but I'm not aware they were acquired by Lincoln. Again I'd need to see the unit. Someone just posted up a new Fortney machine elsewhere. I was surprised that for a new unit it was still the old plug type machine. Older Fortneys were nice, but I'd still opt for the Lincoln.

 

 

I'd have to agree there's almost nothing inside one of those Lincolns to go wrong. Just don't try to switch it to another setting while welding. You can burn the contacts if you do, not that it's all that hard to replace the rotary unit if it does get messed up. Main switch is about the only thing I ever see break, and those very rarely. Again it's a simple fix. You'll be quite happy with it I'm sure. While not at the bottom of the price scale, it's certainly within the typical range I see those units run.

 

Look close at the cables for signs of age or damage. If you see damage or cracks, use that as a bargaining point to lower the price. Cables aren't hard to change, but 4ga copper lead isn't inexpensive. It wouldn't surprise me to see 4ga cable running a bit more than $1 a foot, so that could add up to $25+ in cable quick.

 

 

 

 

 

You'll also want the basic PPE, good gloves, possibly a leather jacket or leather sleeved jacket and a decent hood, if you don't have these already. Especially for the class. Good fit is important with PPE, especially for the ladies. Finding Medium or Ssmall sized gloves she likes may take a bit as they may have to be ordered. I have small hands, so I have to order the mig and tig gloves I like from my welding supplier as they don't stock a big selection in anything other than large. Smae goes for a jacket that fits her well. More and more companies are catering to women welders. I believe Lincoln just came out with a line of ladies gear.

 

The hood is probably the most important thing. If you can't see the puddle well, you won't be able to weld well. A good hood doesn't have to cost a fortune either. My fixed shade Jackson is around $35 or so. Has decent head gear for fit and has as good or better optics than my $300 Miller autodark. Right now I'm trying a gold lens in mine to see if they are really better than the standard lenses. No real call on that yet. Along with the hood, be sure and pick up inner and outer cover lenses. These are disposable and save your good lens from damage. When they get dirty and scratched, Toss them and replace them. It's especially true with AD hoods where the AD lenses aren't cheap.

 

I like AD hood for guys who are learning, but the cheap HF hoods are junk. The AD hoods sold at the big box stores are fair. Miller and a few others sell some decent mid range hoods, say in the $100-150 range. It's not uncommon for me to hand a student my good Miller if I think their issue is that they are being held back by their cheap hood. ( one of the reasons I keep my Jackson with me for classes) Almost every time I get back the comment like "Wow, I can't see anything like that with my hood!" You really do get what you pay for with these. If nothing else think about getting her a decent hood for the class. You can always reacquire it later for yourself.

 

I think it's great she wants to do something like this with you. Family time is never wasted time. I know quite a few women who weld. The majority of them being interested in doing art of some sort. We used to get a few young ladies each semester in the night program when Temple still ran their arts college in the area.

[DSW]

DSW, I have always thought that you posted valid and well thought through replies, in this case the point I wanted to make was: it's often location dependent! The original poster did not give his! Here my Millers cost about 2k usd(used) my inverters cost me $60 to $70 usd(new) including 'tig' torch. Our power costs increase by 35% annually and we pay way, way more than you do. My ''big'' welders are all 380v 3 pH and the inverters are 220v single phase so here it's a no brainer. I know it's different on your side of the pond. So I appreciate your response anyhow. Ian

 

 

 

Thanks, I try and give back where I  can. I learn a lot from the guys here on smithing, the least I can do is give back where I'm more qualified.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like I was commenting on your statement directly. I understood what you were trying to say. I just didn't type it as well as I would have liked.

 

It's a continuation of a common rant with me. I see way too many people who either think they can't afford to use a 220v machine due to high electrical costs, or they think inverters are the only way to go and the old "dinosaurs" are worthless. Most have never stopped to do the basic math, even if they understood how.

 

I had one young student last year who was extremely upset because his mom read him the riot act after he bought his own welder so he could practice at home. She claimed he'd caused the electric bill to jump like $200. I found this quite confusing since he'd only had the machine less than a week and there was no way it could have been reflected on the electric bill yet. We sat down and ran the basic numbers like I did above, and figured out at worst he might have run up maybe $6 or $8 worth of electric tops using the worst possible conditions. Hmmm lets see, it's December and it got cold last month... Are you running electric space heaters at the house? Yep. One 1500 watt space heater, run 12 hours a day, at 13 cents a KWhr, for 30 days, adds up to about $70. I wonder what made the electric bill jump...

 

Electric space heaters use way more power even if they are 110v, than the average home hobbyist will ever use with a welder, most times.

[chris freeman]

Lincoln is a tapped machine, Thunderbolt is a continuous machine if it's the age I'm thinking. I would opt for the Lincoln over the Miller simply based on price. The tiny advantage of the infinite adjustment to me isn't worth the extra $50. It it was AC/DC vs AC, I'd give the nod to the Miller for adjustability, but for AC the advantage is minor.

hey man,

thanks alot you've been alot of help. yeah, my daughter is really getting into smithing and i love it. it will really cool when we take a welding class together. again thanks, chris

[DSW]

Opps sorry that should read my fixed Jackson ran $35 not 435. I missed the shift key and didn't spot it the 1st time thru.

[John McPherson]

One thing to remember with an AC/DC machine is that you lose a lot of power converting AC into DC. There is less power lost converting the low amperage/high voltage from the wall into high amperage/low voltage power in the arc.

 

You will have a higher top end in the AC range, and can run larger rods on thicker metal.

 

And as DSW noted, the cost to a hobby user is in the specialized rods and gear, not the power bill. The convenience factor is more than enough to pay for its keep.

[Jack Evers]

Years ago I asked a stable owner where I kept horses if I could put in  a treadmill - two hp motor. I said I'd pay extra for elecricity if he wanted. He said what will it use? I said about 20 cents an hour - probably use it a couple hours a week. He said don't worry about it. His next electric bill was a hundred or so higher than normal and he was on the warpath. Turned out the meter reader had just misread the meter. I think I've seen estimates that for a commercial shop, the power is one or two percent of a project cost.

[Hillbillysmith]

DSW is spot on with his information. The best bang for your buck is going to be an old Lincoln Tombstone. As everybody says, they're "bullet proof". An AC/DC type machine is more desirable because they have more capability than an AC only machine but they are much more expensive. I have an old AC only tombstone that was my grandfather's and it sat in a dilapidated garage getting snowed and rained on for close to 20 years. I am in possession of the machine now an it works like a champ. I have only heard of 1 ever going bad, I mean SHOT and it was an extreme situation. All the coils inside the machine ended up melting into a big copper blob! :wacko: Other than that ONE incident, only thing I've heard of going bad are stupid things like a stinger, ground clamp, plug end getting ran over, etc.

 

I would recommend an AC/DC type but if Its not in your budget, well, not much you can do about that. Gotta start somewhere! You can always upgrade.

 

Here's a breakdown of the common welding rods and their capabilities:

 

E-6010 is a high penetration electrode with a fast freezing puddle. Runs on DC+ polarity and is used on mild steel designed to penetrate deep into thicker material and good for filling gaps. Capable of welding through light rust and dirty material.

 

E-6011 same as E-6010 but can be ran on either DC+ or AC polarity.

 

E-6013 is a low penetration electrode with a fast(er) freezing puddle. Can be run on either DC+ or AC polarity and is used on mild steel designed for sheet metal applications.

 

E-7018 is a medium penetration electrode with a fluid puddle. Can be ran on DC+ or AC polarity and is used on mild steel designed for structural applications typically superseding an E-6010/E-6011 root pass. This is what they call a low hydrogen electrode or "lo-hi". These are meant to be kept in a rod oven to keep moisture from wicking into the flux.

 

*NOTE* E-7018, according to AWS D5.1 specification, can be ran on DC+ or AC but in reality, a lot of them run horrible on AC current. Some manufacturers have an E-7018 AC that is MEANT to be run on AC. These run much better than the typical ones.

 

-Hillbilly