Stupid newbie with some dumb xxx questions... :-)

[SierraBladeAndTool]

Hi... I'm Steve.   Recently nearly killed in a horrid car crash... (driving a truck, towing a truck... legal speeds... hit by a drunk going 100+... I rolled twice and both trucks destroyed... yadda yadda... not fun, etc.) turned to tooling while in recovery.  Wanted to avoid fire... so was cold cutting and shaping some high carbon tool steel...

Then a seller send me a box of RR spikes by mistake... a big box.  Urghhh... okay... going towards fire now.

OD'd on youtube vids ad nauseum... so I have the gist... red/orange/stray... got it mostly.  The metal codes will never stick... so we'll jump a chapter there please.  I get it... 'ding' = higher carbon, 'dong' = mild steel (low carbon)... and the lie in RR is... "HC" was railroad grading... which was actually only .30% carbon... making it actually NOT "high carbon"... compared to buyable stock.  Right?.. right.

Okay then...

Weighed some options... mapp/propane power coffee can forge lined with clay, charcoal / coal brake drum forge, and Whitlox V shaped mini forge with the fire brick.

Thinking outside the box... I can make all these and better... but my welder rolled in the crash and it is broken too... scratch that.  So then... location.... I'm in the middle of nowhere, near nothing and the ranch... we have lots of open space and scrap wood... so the "Whitlox" version seems most practical.  (and I have a spare small travel hair drier... so = SCORE!)

Stopped at a stove store... they gave me 6 small fire bricks.   Mom has a cat... so we have new and used cat litter... think I'll use the new, thanks.   Ground here is mostly sand/gravel... crushed granite... so
(*) will sifting it for the finest work same as "sand"? (ie beach silica... which is quartz/feldsfar)
(*) can I pound out the cat litter to fine... HOWEVER... it is the ODER additive version, not just clay
(*)... burning down some logs now... so do not have an "ash" question!

So the clay liner = 1-1-1 part of each above... mix into a paste and apply as refractory... right?

OH... my cooker:   I found a Hibachi in the pumphouse... this seems perfect.  Has sloped sides, and has an air breather slider door already on the lower face.

So... design.   (see attached to understand my hybrid thinking.)

Use the Hibachi as vessel core,
take a section of 1/2" pipe with ends capped -place a T in the middle
Drill air feeder holes through out this pipe, lay in center of Hib.
Run T tube out the breather door and enlarge and move away from Hib, connect to hair blower
Clay line the Hib and pipe (but not holes... duh)
Lay firebricks at "V" angle to center, meeting and side edges of air pipe, (clay as mortar to hold?)
Allow to dry... and dry.... and dry.... then test fire with woof chips to bake.

THEN... I'm ready to go right?

======== aside ======

Why does nobody use the double sump oil pan from most V8 truck engines as forge base?  Seems perfect, 2 sumps for large/small forging, drain holes below... EASY.   Just curious.  (this was my other option as I have one here too!)

==================

The dumb(er) questions now...

I can lazy anneal by setting a hot fire and tossing in the spikes and glowing red cover with embers... and forget.  Let the fire burn through... and cool down with spikes or other metal deep in the ashes... (Right?... right.... I think.)   

The magnet test works when red.... but when red then slowed down back to natural cool... does magnetism return?   (nobody ever asks or talks about this... i googled!)

I know I should hammer when red to shape... and I should anneal to make soft for cutting / filing / grinding...  But... will cooled annealed metal... hammer?   If you can cut and file when cold... can you not hammer as well... or do you need the internal crystaline structures to be hot and sticky to regroup while slamming them?

Okay... I rambled enough... for now.  Insight, options, opinions and other crap relating to the above welcome.

Thanks!  -SB

[Charles R. Stevens]

Word to the wise, your going to get chastised for your language in the tittle.
Don't be put off. We all have had Glenn remind us of our manners.
Welcome aboard.

[SierraBladeAndTool]

Yeah... language police are nipping at me already.  How does one edit post titles?

[Glenn]

It is an admin function.

The words have been Xed out already.

 

There are no language police.

Each and every IFI member is charged with reporting anything out of place in order to keep IForgeIron a family forum and a comfortable place to visit  The reports go to all mods and admins so they can be addressed.

[njanvilman]

Getting back to one of your questions:  Forging railroad spikes is commonly done.  You do not have to anneal them first before forging.  Heat them up to a nice forging heat and hammer away.  Annealing is best done after the hammer is completed, again, depending on what you are trying to make. 

 

Yes, magnetism does return when steel is below the non-magnetic temperature.

 

Heat treating (hardening and tempering) is done when the project is finished, again, if needed.

 

I suggest you pull up a chair on a cold day and read for a lot of hours on this site.  There is a wealth of information here.

[LastRonin]

Hammering below red on most steels I've dealt with has a greater chance of causing cracks and stress fractures. I prefer to go to a high orange to yellow minimum before starting to whale on the steel. I try to stop heavy blows for moving the metal around red to deep red. I only hammer on it darker than that for finishing. One reason to avoid hammering on cold/colder steel is the greater wear and chance of damage to your anvil.

[Dodge]

I haven't worked with spikes very much but have done some higher carbon steel forging. IMHO annealing won't be necessary on spikes even after forging. (Assuming we're talking about making blades from spike?) They should file and certainly grind fine with a couple normalizing cycles which should be done after forging a blade anyway. Quik exp for normalizing: Heat to non-magnetic and allow to air cool. Hand sanding can be done before and after heat treat procedures.

 

As others have suggested, read all the posts in knife section  (if in deed you are making knives) and everything else about forging, forges, etc. Pack a lunch; its a fairly long journey :) FYI, Many folks will say that spikes don't make good knives but just as many will say they make very passable knives. Either way, they should be good practice for what ever you choose to make from them. Hope this is helpful

 

Scott

[SierraBladeAndTool]

Thanks Scott... and others.  Yeah it was the cold hammering and internal fractures I was thinking about... so... answered.  Thanks.
Re annealing... the spikes are just novelty... my main work is done on old tool wrenches... so they go through LOTS of cut-off blades!

I tossed a handful in my "I need wood ash" fire last night... they got red... and I left it to burn down and away.  Everything now is cool... but where I am is in the 20's° at night... so I doubt the 'wood ash is a good annealing insulator' came into play.  Thoughts?
Would the super cold make them slow cool too fast? 

Thanks, -S.

(and indeed... they like magnets again!)    *oh... clay issues with using the odor stuff?

[ThomasPowers]

Are they soft?  If so you lucked out.  Don't need us to tell you if it worked when your file will give a truer answer!

 

BTW if you want to read of another smith's near death experience and recovery read the saga of Frosty and the great white birch.

[Frosty]

Welcome aboard Steve, glad to have you.

 

Yeah, I almost lost a fight with a vegetable 4 years and a bit ago, still recovering but what the hey, life without challenges is just processing food and air.

 

don't worry about getting the forge "perfect" it's just a hearth/fire place, something to hold a fire and air it. The charcoal no stinkum kitty litter isn't an issue at all, I don't know about the baking soda but doubt it'll hurt anything.

 

No, you do NOT want to enough water to make it malleable, bentonite clay takes a LOT of water to become plastic and when it dries it WILL shrink check. Only add enough water so you can ram it and it'll hold it's shape, less than damp. Bentonite is funny stuff but it is hydrophilic, meaning it LIKES water so you can add a little, mix it and put it in a sealed container, tupper ware is perfect and just let it rest. The moisture will distribute itself equally throughout all the clay.

 

Forget stuff like ash or perlite etc. this kind of forge doesn't benefit from insulation. In some cases ash helps act as a binder but it's not necessary for bentonite clay, the stuff is sticky as all gitout. Crushed or decomposed granite is fine for sand in the clay mix. And no, you don't need to crush the kitty litter. Dampen the sand and mix it and put it in a sealed container over night and give it a hard squeeze in your hand, if it leaves your hand is wet, it's too damp, add a little litter and leave set over night again. If it crumbles it's too dry add a LITTLE water, mix and leave over night and repeat the test in the morning. If it forms a hard clump without leaving more than a little dust on your hand, break it in half. If it breaks clean it's good to go, ram in in the forge body with a wooden mallet till the mallet bounces. If you burnish it with a burlap till it's smooth clinker won't stick as easily.

 

A "V" forge works well but is primarily for bladesmithing and isn't so hot if you're doing scrolls or built up pieces, say quarterfoils or railings, etc. all you need is something to shape the fire and hold it at a convenient height. Heck, a hole in the ground is excellent provided you're on mineral soil. Check out Glenn's 55 forge as found under forges section, it's an excellent set up and is made largely from salvage. An old BBQ works well and has wheels. clay forges can be made from wood, the clay keeps the hot off it. Almost anything works dandy. While I haven't sen an oil pan forge it will no doubt make a dandy forge. Lots of guys use SS sinks, single or double, they're SWEET forges too.

 

Avoid using galvanized close to the fire, over heat it and zinc will burn with a green flame and zinc oxide isn't meant to be breathed a heavy dose can cause damage or even death. If you see the green flame and bluish white, lacy smoke, don't freak out and go running, just step out of the way and don't breath more than you have to getting clear. No, it's NOT heavy metal can't cause heavy metal poisoning. Zinc is a necessary nutrient, your body will just process it and expel excess but breathing it is a BAD thing, avoid it.

 

RR spikes are as you've noted mild steel, heat treatment has no significant effect. So long as you don't forge it cold it'll be fine, forge cold and it will eventually split. Orange or higher is a good forging heat for most steels,high carbon doesn't do as well in the yellows due to the carbon, it has a lower melting and burning point, sparks = burning steel. Avoid sparky steel.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[SierraBladeAndTool]

Thanks Frosty... good insight!  And assuming Bentonite is the clay native to the cat litter...   Thanks again.  Yeah I did a 4 part 1-1-1-1 test mix, too wet as a sample...  filtered concrete down to just the fine cement mix-sand-ash-litter.  Mix till movable mud (too wet) and applied to a box, and some concrete cracks outside.  Still not hard... but better there than in a kiln bomb!

[Charles R. Stevens]

Avoid cement, it will decompose under heat. That's how the make it in the first place, limestone and clay and high heat.
Use clay, clay and grog (grount fired clay) are better than clay and sand. You can improve the mix by wetting it with water glass.
Ash is caustic and stabilizes the clay (keeps it from expanding and contracting when wet)

[SierraBladeAndTool]

Again... cool... and thanks.  I'll start snapping the build, as I think I have all my parts together... but I'm going to paint the Hibachi "IH RED" first... to bling out my cooker!

Pics soon... but in the interim... here was my crash...

(And a few of "BLUE" as purchased... then as built... then... urghhhh!!!!!!!)