Advice Wanted: Drawing 1.25" axle...

[Harris Snyder]

Hello everyone,

 

I just got some axle, inch and a quarter. And it is tough. I'm looking to make a hammer eye drift, which I think means drawing out a 5 inch section to 15 inches. Any advice? I tried the far edge of anvil, half hammer face blows approach but ended up tapering way too sharply. perhaps I was holding it at too steep an angle? In any event, I need a smooth, gradual taper... Any tips or tricks?

Thanks

[DSW]

Question, why use that material for a drift? I made my hammer eye drift from mild steel. I did 3 hammers out of 1 1/2"+ 4140 with it and there's zero distortion or wear on it. Granted the punch was made from H13 for use on the power hammer, but all the drifting was done by hand with that mild steel drift.

[Charles R. Stevens]

You want to start with a steep taper, if you try to gradually taper it you will "fish mouth" the end of the bar. After you have beveled the end work back to lengthen the tapper. Remember, you draw a round by making it a square, then a octagon, then a round, then a square....
It's about the surface area your striking. Also, with medium carbon, take at least a brite orange heat, but not much in to yellow as the more carbon the Easter to burn. Don't bother hitting it after it dropped in to red, to much work, and you can form cracks if you work it in to dull read) And make sure the steel has time to soak, so it gets hot all the way trew. Lastly chose a big hammer, you want to move the mass of hot steel all the way to the core, not just the outside. It's kind of like trying to adjust a wall with a framing hammer, all you do is beat the heck out of the wood, wile a few judicious taps with a 8# slege and the whole wall moves with about hardly a dent to the wood.
I use a 4# hammer for such things (If I can't rope Dad into striking with the 8 or 14#)

[ThomasPowers]

STRIKERS!

[Harris Snyder]

Hmm, thanks, guys! I didn't realize a mild steel drift could be effective. I might just try that first and then resort to strikers if it gets screwed up.

Thanks again, good advice

[ThomasPowers]

A lot of drifts being sold are ductile cast iron and so mild steel is a step *up* from that!  Though I do tend to do the grunt work with a bull pin to save mushrooming on my ductile drifts and just use them for final clean up and shaping.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Thommas, you and DSW are no fun, helpings him beat that axle shaft in to shape is like buying your brothers kids a Shetland pony.

[ThomasPowers]

To go with the drum set(s) and the complete sharpie marker colour set?

 

Generally I just tell the kids I'll buy them a pony for Christmas---unless their parents find it first and get rid of it!  Then scatter a few pony piles around and Bob's your Uncle!

[Harris Snyder]

lol you guys are hilarious. okay, mild steel it is I guess.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Harris; If you have the wear with all, pound out the axle. If you decide to change to mild, you have a start on a good handled punch in that piece of axle.
Thommas; ah, but to watch that pony, bite, kick, buck run down the fence and under low branches and clothes lines...
Not to mention the fit your brother has when you unlode the hairy little monster...
(By know you will have figured out that you only by a Shetland pony if you need to haul coal out of the mines or you hate kids ;-)

[Francis Trez Cole]

if I want to move a lot of metal fast my first option is the horn, if  that is not aggressive enough I have 1" 3/4" and 1/2" solid rod with a piece that fits in my hardie hole welded to the side I hammer against them and create a bunch of divots then move to the horn and smooth it out. I turn the piece 1/4 turn each strike.  1 1/2" is a great size for a drift after you have the taper round smash it flat on two sides leaving the other two sides rounded.. you want a smooth even taper. With that size stock you will be able to make sledge hammers. work in the bright orange range to dull yellow any hotter you will have problems. if you get it to hot let it cool down and start again. high carbon steel that is to hot will just crumble under the hammer. since the drift will be heated and cooled often you do not need to harden it  

[brianbrazealblacksmith]

If you plan on making hammers like the one you and Countryforge made, mild steel will not hold up well. When you forge hammers with the cheeks, the drift acts as an anvil inside the hole, so a tougher steel will hold up better. If you are forging your drift with a hand hammer like I usually have to do, drawing over the far edge of the anvil is the most agressive and easiest to control way. It does take some practice and the angles you hold are crucial. The base of your taper does not require much work so hold your angle low so you don't gouge in too much. The middle and end is where the work is so you can up you angle until you get close to your desired taper, then lower your angle to your desired taper. Learning to forge hex can also save a lot of work. Starting with round and forging to a round taper requires less hits forging a hex taper. Don't do too much at the start of the taper and don't go too small any where else along the taper is the main thing.

[Rich Hale]

h 13 is not a mild steel. It is a hot work tool steel that is made to work as a punch even if it gains color from the steel it is working in. Two things to think about with that: it is hard to reshape,,,it resists deformation when hot. You can hand forge it,,,just takes more effort. 

When  made into a punch, it is one of the best I have ever used for punching hot steel. 

 

It and mild steel are not interchangeable. 

[Harris Snyder]

Francis, unfortunately my anvil is 70 lbs and beating like this on the horn makes it jump around.

 

Brian, Yeah that was the hope. I had a feeling mild wouldn't do that job well, that's why i didn't reach for it in the first place. When you say forge hex, do you mean half hammer face blows, rotating the stock 60 degrees between each hit? That sounds like a much better idea than square/octagon/round.... I assume I'm to keep roating it in the same direction then, not back and forth? And I guess I'd be slowly pulling it back onto the anvil between hits too, no?

Rich, I think DSW was saying his punch was H13 and the drift was mild... I'm pretty sure H13 and mild are hard to mistake for one another for the reasons you've outlined very well!

[Rich Hale]

He did indeed,,thanks!

[Francis Trez Cole]

your anvil needs to be attached to a stand and the stand attached to the floor it should not jump around 

[VaughnT]

Yea, if your anvil is moving, you're not getting the most benefit from the hammer blow.  If it moves when you strike on the horn, it's moving when you strike on the face, too.  The anvil shouldn't be able to move, period.  

 

Either there's some slop between the anvil and stump, or between the stump and the ground.  Fix that problem and you'll see the performance increase.

 

As for moving thick stock with a hand hammer, make sure you have let the heat soak into the metal so that it's thoroughly warmed all the way through.  And use as big a hammer as you can.  In this case, a 5lb hammer wouldn't be amiss if you have one.  Other than that, it's all about sweating through the hours, wearing your elbow out and wishing you had a power hammer.

[Harris Snyder]

As for moving thick stock with a hand hammer, make sure you have let the heat soak into the metal so that it's thoroughly warmed all the way through.  And use as big a hammer as you can.  In this case, a 5lb hammer wouldn't be amiss if you have one.  Other than that, it's all about sweating through the hours, wearing your elbow out and wishing you had a power hammer.

Hahah I love this.

Yeah, definitely need to get a proper anvil stand rigged up. *sigh* my work space is very sub-optimal, living in a city and whatnot. There's loooots of little problems that need fixing. Like I'd like a vice for one...

[JNewman]

Working over the back edge of the anvil rather than the horn not only is the fullering more aggressive but the mass of the of the anvil is under the work.    With a thinner waisted or light anvil like Harris has this  becomes even more of an issue.  Even if his 70lb anvil were welded to a 1000lb steel base there will be enough flex in the anvil to rob a lot of energy working on the horn. 

 

You do need a nice radius on the back edge not a chipped up sharp corner to avoid cold shuts.

[Harris Snyder]

A chipped up sharp corner is what I have... Considering grinding it...

[JNewman]

Grind a 1.5" or 2" section for now. if you find it is not enough it is easy to widen the rounded edge,  It is nice to have a sharp corner in a place or two and it is hard to replace material but easy to grind off.  Taking a little off then using the anvil before taking more off is the prudent way to go here.   My anvil has mostly a 1/4"  radius but having a section at 3/8" radius would not be a bad thing if that is what it took to clean it up.  . 

 

If any of the edge is rolled over creating  an overhanging burr I would grind that all off.  That rolled over edge is likely to chip just like a mushroomed chisel and can be dangerous as wellas marking up your work .  Cleaning this up will actually sharpen up your corner. 

[Charles R. Stevens]

Mine starts out sharp, and works out to nearly 3/4 at the heal (farriers anvil so it's heal ends in turning cams)

[Harris Snyder]

Mine's an NC tool co farrier's anvil too, but honestly it doesn't suit my work well at all. I often feel that a heavy block of tool steel with a hardy hole would be a better anvil than the anvil I'm using now, haha.

 

Thanks, I think I'll attempt to grind some of it's edges. Does anyone use any sort of jig for radius grinding, or just go for it and get it as close as possible?

[Charles R. Stevens]

Heavy forging is a PITA, you have to stay over the waist. You also need to consider hardy tools that are made to have their working surfaces close to the waist.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Up side, they are optimized for turning. So scrowl work is a bit easier. My stand is a bit light, but then again this is my traveling anvil not my shop anvil. I have the capability of staking it down if I need to get crazy. With farrier anvils I find that if I keep to the 20 to one rule hammer to anvil it works out better. So for a 75# anvil stay under 3.75# so a 4# hand sledge wouldn't be out of line. And a 2# as your "daily driver".