Gas burner frustration, can I use BZ 8250 with propane?

[Guest adhamh]

Hi all,

I'm just getting start at this and I'm already frustrated with burners. I read http://zoellerforge.com/miniforge.html and I started to think this was the way to go.

Has anyone used a BZ 8250 with propane? Hardware stores appear to sell propane hose adapters which I think will allow me to connect this torch to my BBQ propane tank.

Basically, I just want to heat up some metal and start pounding it. I've been researching burners for a week and its gotten me frustrated. I'm on a budget so I can afford to buy a prebuilt fancy burner, and since I'm just starting out I think this small forge made out of 6" pipe will be plenty big.

Thoughts?

Any suggestions on anvils would be welcome too... I'm planning a trip to the junkyard tomorrow.

BTW, I haven't fully connected to the local blacksmith community and I don't have a lot of tools. (no drill press, and no welding equip.)

[Chinobi]

Can't find 'follow' on my phone UI, so I'll post :) if you can post a pic of your pipe forge the more experienced members can offer more specific advice. What kind of refractory/lining do you have in said pipe? Have you fired it up yet or are you feeling it out beforehand? Try running it off the fat boy it came with to see if the forge body will perform well before you invest more into your burner equipment.

Good luck :)

[Dodge]

That link seems to be broke on my end, but while I'm not familiar with his part numbers, I'm pretty sure all of Zoeller's burners are for use with propane. However, although connecting to a BBQ sized tank is common, a regulator designed for BBQs won't provide enough volume required to run a forge unless its a very tiny one but doubtfull it would be enough to run any proper forge burner with adequate BTU output. Others that know more about the science of BTUs can explain better but burners and regulators (and you should run one; there designs that don't use them but have a regulating device/valve all the same) need to work together to perform well within the confines of a gas forge. The BBQ hoses are designed with the correct rubber to play nice with propane, but he regulators designed for BBQs just don't have the capacity to allow enough gas through.

 

Hope this helps

Scott

[Guest adhamh]

 

That link seems to be broke on my end, but while I'm not familiar with his part numbers, I'm pretty sure all of Zoeller's burners are for use with propane. However, although connecting to a BBQ sized tank is common, a regulator designed for BBQs won't provide enough volume required to run a forge unless its a very tiny one but doubtfull it would be enough to run any proper forge burner with adequate BTU output. Others that know more about the science of BTUs can explain better but burners and regulators (and you should run one; there designs that don't use them but have a regulating device/valve all the same) need to work together to perform well within the confines of a gas forge. The BBQ hoses are designed with the correct rubber to play nice with propane, but he regulators designed for BBQs just don't have the capacity to allow enough gas through.

 

Hope this helps

Scott

Fixed the link..... The BZ 8250 is really just the torch and regulator as far as I can tell. That's $65 plus the fat boy tank, which is why I want to use my existing propane tanks with this torch.

[Guest adhamh]

Can't find 'follow' on my phone UI, so I'll post :) if you can post a pic of your pipe forge the more experienced members can offer more specific advice. What kind of refractory/lining do you have in said pipe? Have you fired it up yet or are you feeling it out beforehand? Try running it off the fat boy it came with to see if the forge body will perform well before you invest more into your burner equipment.
Good luck :)

I'm just talking right now. No actual setup yet. I'm planning to use Kaowool and something like ITC-100 if I can wait for it to arrive before I fire it up.

[Dodge]

OK, yeah that would use the small "plumbers" torch tanks but I suppose with the right adapter, it could be connected to the larger tank. I got one to run my Mr Heater off my 100# tank. It normally uses the camp size tanks. Mr Heater sells the adapter

[DSW]

If you can find one, Prestolite sells propane plumbers torches already set up for the 20 lb cylinders. You can also change the tip size to control how much heat you get. I used to have propane tips big enough to solder 4" copper, but sold the whole box with all the extras because I usually solder with acetylene. Then wouldn't you know it, I picked up a propane torch for next to nothing at a flea market on a box of other parts... My local welding supply frequently has the import Prestolite knock off on sale. I want to say it runs a bit less than $100. They show up on CL now and then, but most times the ones I see are for acetylene.

 

 

 

Oh Propane runs a bit colder than Propylene does. If I remember propylene runs at about 3600 deg F vs 3450 deg F  for propane. This means it takes roughly 20 to 25% longer to heat with propane vs propylene everything else being roughly the same.

[Bruno C.]

adhamh,   The bernzomatic will run on a propane tank.  I got the same one.  Picked up a coleman hose adapter at walmart's for $20.  I had the same idea of building a little mini forge like on Mr. Zoeller's site.   However,  for what it's worth, you may be better off saving up and just buying a proper burner.  Mr. Zoeller sells his Z-Burner for $75, and then add another $60 or so for the hose and regulator and you are good to go,  or maybe get the Mini-burner, or the Kit.  Hightemptools also sells burners and kits, and other forge supplies.   The bernzomatic, I think will work, with a properly built forge, but I am basically building the forge for it for forging of small items, such as small blades or springs, or anything else I don't wanna turn my big forge on for.   My current plan is a 8 1/4" diameter pipe, 8" long, and I will have 2" of inswool/kaowool, with a good layer of satanite and ITC-100, maybe a mizzou floor too.  Hopefully that will get me going.   Started working on a D. Fogg style vertical forge first, and will build the smaller one along side it.  I grabbed the bernzomatic mostly because I wanted something portable that I can travel with. But I have concerns as to how hot it will get/ versus fuel consumption of a typical coleman propane bottle, as I can't seem to find any BTU specs for the torch.  And I think a properly built 1/2" burner would work much better.  But for small things, I think it will be just fine.    If I were you, I'd invest in some satanite or similar.  Used mostly as a coating for the Kaowool, so you don't breath in the Nasty silicates that come off it at high heats, and it's cheaper than buying enough ITC-100 to cover the whole thing. (Also good for claying blades)  ITC-100 is best used as a thin top/final coating to my understanding.   Also, I've found that if you have a metal supplier near you, it's sometimes cheaper and easier to just get the right piece of metal in the first place.  Won't cost much more than the scrap yard, and if he's a good nice guy, he'll cut it up for you to the right size for no extra cost.  Versus cutting blades, torch fuel, and clean up of whatever you find at the scrap yard.   I wish I did that in the first place, as I got my pipe from the yard, but it was coated in some sort of epoxy, which I had to chip away, and then burn away, before I had something usable.   And now I have a bunch of extra 5/16" wall, 8 1/4" diameter, epoxy coated pipe, that I don't want to work with, versus a few bucks at a decent supplier.  Live and learn.

 

Also, if you are still in the planning stage, and want something now,  Look up the "2 brick forge".  Basically can use the bernzomatic, 2 soft firebricks, and some ITC-100.  Quick, cheap, easy, and will get you started in no time.  There are also some small forges for sale at various places for a very decent price, well made and ready to go.  Look up Atlas forge.

 

Anvils:  An Anvil.  Or Anything big and metal.  A Rail Road track would work. Oversized axles. If lucky enough to find a Fork lift tine, I've seen someone that used that, by just sticking the end in the ground and letting it stand..  Seemed to work well.  We would all love a 400 lb Well made anvil in the shop ( I WANT ONE!), but I think a 6" - 1' long piece of RR track would work fine with a Miniforge like you want.

 

Good luck.

 

-Bruno

 

P.S.:   (1)  I do not work for or get paid from any business mentioned in this post. :)

          (2) You are solely responsible for your own health and safety.  Do yourself a favour and wear proper safety equipment. At least a decent respirator.  It's a whole lot cheaper than a hospital bill.  Trust Me.   This is all dangerous stuff.

[Frosty]

Hiya, we're always so glad to help a person progress in their addiction. Okay, I think I have it; you're using a propane plumber's torch or want to. No problem they're plenty hot enough for a small forge and projects. A piece of 6" pipe with 2" kaowool liner. Good, that'll work if you keep the length to 6" or less.

 

Instead of using "pipe" use stainless steel stove pipe, 6" dia is on the shelf waiting for you. You can get it in lengths down to 12" I believe, just don't use it all and you're golden.

 

I'm a real fan of SS stove pipe for pipe forge shells for a couple reasons: First, you do NOT need a heavy shell, it's not like you're going to be forging truck axles are you? Second, SS is an efficient IR reflector so more heat stays IN the forge. The outside stays much cooler so it's possible to move the forge easily with a little caution. Third, you don't need any special tools, good tin snips, hole saw, drill bits, pop rivets, etc. Easy greasy. Then there are the off the shelf items you find soooo handy like wall hanger brackets. They are saddles that run about 1/3-1/2 the way around the pipe intended to hang it on walls at the safe offset distance. these make the neatest legs and they're plenty strong so with a helper you can forge on that pickup axle.

 

If you're going to be doing any welding you'll want something to protect the kaowool, hot flux goes through it like hot water through cotton candy. ITC-100 is a pretty good shield but most guys put a piece of kiln shelf, sometimes split fire brick for a floor in the bottom. This is a good play as it gives you a nice solid flat floor to work on and it's a huge lot tougher than kaowool. I haven't heard anyone talking about this recently but I'm not a blade guy and don't hang on that section if IFI. That trick is to make a stainless steel pan to protect the forge floor from flux.

 

Gotta go do the barn chores, later.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[Charles R. Stevens]

One thing to note with gassers, it's more difficult to localize heat. You either resort to a torch or selective cooling with water or very heavy tongs. You'll see what I mean when you start working. Take the classic bottle openner. You punch and drift a hole, now to flatten the outside edge of the hole. With your gasser it's hard to heat just the right spot. So you have to cool the other half of the hole.
I actually find solid fuel less expensive to build and run. Plus it's more versatile. Not to say that my pro forge doesn't see daily service.
So don't discount a hair drier, a peace of pipe, a box full of dirt, and a bag of lump charcoal.
Infact build both. You'll have a blast.
Of further note I have burnt up more steel in a solid fuel forge than my gasser.

[Hyper Iron]

If you're wanting a gas forge I would go with what I've purchased in the past. Majestic forge makes some really inexpensive and quality stuff. I have a stand alone single burner with a platform underneath. For 200$ you really can't beat the deal. Unless you are really hell bent on the mini forge I would check that site out. In the time it will take you to build that mini forge you could save up for one of their forges. I also have a nice knife maker forge from them too. I'm in no way affiliated with this company just a happy customer. I'll post a pic of the stand alone one so you can see it.

[Hyper Iron]

Here's that stand alone burner in action.

[Guest adhamh]

Thanks for the replies! I'm going to go gas because I'm in the city and my neighbors would not be happy with coal...

I'm going to give the sidearm burner a shot. I did some more looking and think I can find the parts I need locally, except ITC-100.

If that fails I'll give the BZ a try.

[Charles R. Stevens]

Charcoal works well, infact it has worked for a few thousand years, no smoke. But if you have your heart set in gas, by all means. Be carful tho, I had a deputy come buy last year wanting to play twenty questions about my propane can colection ( only have 8 20#) aperiantly the local meth cookers where steeling anhydranis ammonia from the farmers, storing it in propain cans. Thaught I was goin to have to run every can I had to satisfy him. The old proforge fixed I'm, it popped back and then roared to life. He lost interstate in me as a drug dealer.

[Bruno C.]

Also check out Ron Reil style burners.  Somewhat easier to make than sidearm burners, requiring fewer parts in terms of construction.  And look up the book

"Gas Burners for Forges, Furnaces, and Kilns" by Michael Porter if truly interested in building burners/forges.  Lots of good info.  Coal is awesome if you can get it near you.   Charcoal can be made with the help of a 55 gallon drum, if you can get plenty of wood nearby as well.   There is also the option of using a Forced Air Gas forge, which requires simple pipe, a couple valves, and a decent blower.  Simpler to build than a Venturi style burner, but require a little bit of special attention when lighting and turning off.  Dangers are preset.  But from what I can tell some smiths prefer them to venturi styles because of the controllability.

[damienfr6]

*********************** READ THIS ONE DUDE*********************

 

 

If you haven't done a lot of blacksmithing and are looking to try it out before you buy a whole system, I advise that you buy the bernzo 8250, buy some fire bricks or "castable refractory cement". Make sure it's castable. You can make your own bricks or soup can/coffee can forge. get the coleman hose from walmart or the male female adaptor from lowes(both are found in the propane department). This whole kit will cost you $125 and about 2 hours over a period of two days to put together. this is the most simple set up i've found. I just put mine together and the forge will take a warm piece of coil spring and get it almost white hot in about 1 minute...after it's up to heat. I used my makeshift forge for about 2 hours and barely used any propane. so...this is very efficient if you are looking to 'try' blacksmithing out without dropping your life savings into it. 

 

idk if you've found an anvil type object...but go to a metal recycling yard...find an I-BEAM(sucks as an anvil...but is cheap and VERY easy to find), rail road track(sucks still and is more expensive), or walk down an old rail road track and you may or may not find a flat piece of steel that goes under the rail road ties...that may or may not work...I don't know. i've never taken one. ;) and lowes sells a cheap blacksmith hammer. i'd use a ball pein hammer too. good luck. have fun. light things on fire.

[Charles R. Stevens]

A 32" hunk of rail set on end works well, as dose a 20# sledge hammer head set in a stump (striking edge up) stay away from I beam it will flustrate you to no end. The little can or two brick forge is fine for all the 1/4" starter projects like "S" hooks, "J" hooks, drive hooks, "tommy" stickers and such. May or may not get to welding temp so 1/4 chain may or may not fly ( 1/4 chain is a bit advances as it cools fast)

[BlazingIndustrial]

CHECK THIS OUT!

We built furnaces and torches. Here is a link for a small furnace we are selling on eBay; you can get it complete (furnace and single torch) or only the torch.

Hope this helps.

Let us know if you have any kind of questions.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/190865056969?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2649

[Hyper Iron]

This actually had my attention for a very long time. I'd suggest trying it out if money is the primary issue. http://zoellerforge.com/firebrickforge.html

[Charlotte]

I'm a long time home forge builder and I have to say that all of the suggestions made in this topic are excellent.  My only addition is that you buy a standard regulator a 510 CGA connection if you plan to continue with forging.  The regulator that I'm talking about is the one used by Scrap metal demolition teams that use oxy/propane torches for cutting.  Small regulators equal small volume.  In the south there is often available a crawfish burner regulator which provides adequate volume tor most one or two burner forges The Pro model regulator is expensive but has the advantage of offering a wider range of control.

 

As I said the other members have given you excellent advice.  Decide how you want to go and enjoy the journey.

[Guest adhamh]

*********************** READ THIS ONE DUDE*********************

 

 

If you haven't done a lot of blacksmithing and are looking to try it out before you buy a whole system, I advise that you buy the bernzo 8250, buy some fire bricks or "castable refractory cement". Make sure it's castable. You can make your own bricks or soup can/coffee can forge. get the coleman hose from walmart or the male female adaptor from lowes(both are found in the propane department). This whole kit will cost you $125 and about 2 hours over a period of two days to put together. this is the most simple set up i've found. I just put mine together and the forge will take a warm piece of coil spring and get it almost white hot in about 1 minute...after it's up to heat. I used my makeshift forge for about 2 hours and barely used any propane. so...this is very efficient if you are looking to 'try' blacksmithing out without dropping your life savings into it. 

 

idk if you've found an anvil type object...but go to a metal recycling yard...find an I-BEAM(sucks as an anvil...but is cheap and VERY easy to find), rail road track(sucks still and is more expensive), or walk down an old rail road track and you may or may not find a flat piece of steel that goes under the rail road ties...that may or may not work...I don't know. i've never taken one. ;) and lowes sells a cheap blacksmith hammer. i'd use a ball pein hammer too. good luck. have fun. light things on fire.

 

 

Thanks for the tips.  The 8250 does seem like it would work, but its actually more expensive than making a burner.  I've found a place locally where I can buy the parts, so I've solved that problem.  Maybe I'm still making things to complicate but I've decided on using the Z Burner design.

[Adhamh]

I setup the BZ torch and a coffee can forge! It's pretty limited but it also got me going.



I've since bent one end of the rebar into a loop, cut a piece off and did a little tapering. It's been fun.

However, I think this has taught me that a newbie should almost never build their own forge. By the time you end up buying all the pieces you need you will spend as much if not more than buying one from a place like diamondback. This might not be true if you are going to do a brick pile forge.

[Charles R. Stevens]

I think the path traveled has its own rewards. Now you get to improve your setup. Slip a half thickness fire brick in the bottom, fabricate a end cap and a set of legs and be proud of building it yourself. Blacksmithing is usually about "doing it the hard way" at least at first. Then you figure out what is efficient and what is fun.
Now go to the steel yard and buy a peice of 1/4 square, and make "s" hooks. And such. Rebar is very inconsistent. Some parts of the country it's low carbon stuff, others high carbon. It makes it hard on a beginner.

[Bruno C.]

Nice work.  I can't tell from the pics, but I hope you used some sort of Rigidizer on that Wool Insulation.   That stuff produces nasty airborne silicates at high temps.   If you don't have any satanite,  a light coat of ITC-100 would work to keep the fibers down, plus the added UV reflection.     How does the forge work for you ?  How long to warm up ? How long to heat that piece of rebar ?    I've seen somewhere (possibly Zoeller's Site), where someone basically made two coffee can forges and put them in line together for use with longer work. Just a thought.

 

I'm sure you're too busy playing with your new forge to answer such questions :)

[Adhamh]

Nice work.  I can't tell from the pics, but I hope you used some sort of Rigidizer on that Wool Insulation.   That stuff produces nasty airborne silicates at high temps.   If you don't have any satanite,  a light coat of ITC-100 would work to keep the fibers down, plus the added UV reflection.     How does the forge work for you ?  How long to warm up ? How long to heat that piece of rebar ?    I've seen somewhere (possibly Zoeller's Site), where someone basically made two coffee can forges and put them in line together for use with longer work. Just a thought.
 
I'm sure you're too busy playing with your new forge to answer such questions :)

I thought rigidizer and ITC-100 we're separate products? I've done neither yet and am wearing a mask. I'm looking at applying the rigidizer and ITC-100, unless I don't need the ridigizer.

I'd say the 3/8" rebar was hot enough 5 minutes after turning the burner on. I was impressed. Today I go some hardened 3/4" round and it seems to take 15 to 20 minutes.

I wonder if the 3/4" round is starting to push the limits of this burner. Maybe the ITC-100 will help.

Here are some pictures of the 3/4. In the first you can see that the forge does have a hotspot. I think this is after 15 minutes.



This is after 5 to 10 more minutes and it looks much better...




My biggest problem at this point isn't the forge though. It's an anvil and getting things at the right height. I was pounding the 3/4" on a 4" think flat block of Austin limestone tonight and cracked it after 3 hits. It was a nice clean straight crack at least...