Damastang Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Hello all, I am fairly new here have just recently completed my first "proper" pattern welded knife and it had me thinking how many layers were lost to forge scale? I started with 5 layers of leaf spring and saw blade and folded it 5 times to get 160 layers. The pattern is beautiful however there is definitely not 160 layers visible in the blade. I have noticed this with a lot of other pattern welded blades as well, people claiming to have 500-1000 layers yet it looks more like 200-300 layers? Is it just the norm to count layers based on the number of folds? Not having a dig, just curious :) It's a bit worrying watching scale fly off the billet as your hammering away at it, knowing that each flake is probably a layer. Cheers Ryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmccustomknives Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 You can expect 20 - 50% material loss due to scaling. The more time you forge the greater the loss. The guys with power hammers and presses will have less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 OK take a deep breath in and sigh it out and repeat after me "layer counts and folds are BOGUS"; but they are what we have to base discussions on. A couple of gedanken experiments can show this: one: you are comparing a pocket knife blade that is less than 1/8" thick and was forged from a nominally 500 layer billet and a katana blade that is 1/2" thick and was forged from a nominally 1000 layer billet. Which has the most layers? If your normalize to 1" you find the pocket knife comes in at 4000 layers an inch and the katana at 2000. But who is bragging more about their layer count? Two: folds, my standard billet starts out with 25 layers of BSB and Pallet strapping. If I fold it 5 times I am at 800 nominal layers. A friend starts out his billets with 3 layers, folded 5 times he gets 96 layers but we both folded 5 times! I have run into people claiming outrageous numbers of layers and folds not realizing that what you then get is homogeneous steel---I usually ask if the smith died of radiation poisoning when they start claiming layer counts that would put them below the radius of an iron atom! The basic truth is when the Damascus Research Group (University of Southern IL at Carbondale IIRC) did the in depth studies they found that with thin layers and no blocking elements (like pure Ni) the carbon content has equalized after about the 4th time to welding temp. If it worries you starting referring to "nominal layer count" of your billets and use the phrase" this knife was made from a billet with a nominal layer count of XYZ" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmHorus Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 I actually have the material sciences class next door to my class. checking a chunk of damascus I was working on last weekend for cracks and whatnot using penetrant and x'rays. Should have the report this afternoon from them, just have fun doing it is what I think, learn the fancy patterns and stuff after you can get your welds perfected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 I and a few others here will be willing to help with the pattern making, after you get to that stage :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Thoughts from a NOT a blade guy. On occasions where scale becomes a factor I keep everything covered with flux as a prophylactic measure. The flux forms an air barrier keeping oxy away from the hot steel. This is one of it's main functions in a weld as well. The problem with keeping everything covered in flux is it's REALLY messy, it gets on the anvil the hammers, other tools, your apron, the floor, every darned where. However it makes a huge difference in scale formation so iF scale is a factor fluxing is a mitigating practice. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WmHorus Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 lol, ya having flying flux hit you in tender places while using the little giant is fun.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremy k Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Depending on how you actually did the "pattern" - while counting layers seen from one side of the blade - this may only be half the layers until you count the layers on the other side of the blade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasPowers Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 Personally I wear clothes when welding---even with a powerhammer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Sells Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 the main thing about keeping count of layers IS for the intended look, a 500 layer billet twisted washes out, while 4 layers is very course twist. its relative to how YOU work, for YOUR benefit, my 300 layer looks like a friends 450 layer. Personally I prefer 70 or so layers for a twist, I know a guy that does 40 and his looks about the same as mine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Posted August 2, 2013 Share Posted August 2, 2013 lol, ya having flying flux hit you in tender places while using the little giant is fun.... Naw, forging with flux on the LG is no sweat, just make a fine mesh screen scatter shield and it's no problem at all. It's on the anvil the hot sticky stuff gets to flying. Frosty The Lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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