What is it? (guys who use the old stuff)

[jmccustomknives]

I've got a project making a small sign holder in the historical down town district.  The gentleman that commisioned this wanted to use the old awning hangers for the construction.  They are about 1/2" round stock.  While the building they came off of was circa 1870 I believe these are early 1900 ish.  I spark tested and the sparks were definatly that of carbon steel.  They however forge like wrought iron.  It's like working hot silly putty.  It doesn't split along the grain like wrought iron however and does still move easily at a red heat.  Just cuious if anybody knows what this stuff is because it doesn't forge like any mild steel I've ever used.

[K. Bryan Morgan]

I've been reading "Elementary Forge Practice" by Lord John Bacon over the last few evenings.  What it sounds like to me is what he calls "mild steel".  From his descriptions, there were four basic types of iron products in those days.  Cast iron, wrought iron, mild steel and tool steel.  He talks the differences between them and if I remember what I read correctly what your describing is almost exactly what he wrote about mild steel.  No stratification by silicon inclusions, and low carbon content, it won't split.  Hope this helps.

[ThomasPowers]

*really* *really* low carbon; it will seem like silly putty if you are used to working A36!  Do work it hot though---much less effort...

[jmccustomknives]

Thanks, that's kind of what I thought was going on with it. B)

[Frank Turley]

I started smiting steel in the early 1960's, and we would buy your everyday 20' lengths of mild steel at the "service center." I believe that our steel contained about 0.20% carbon (SAE 1020). It was plain carbon steel. Little by little over the years, that steel began to be replaced by A36, the same structural steel that angle iron, tee iron, and channels are made of. A36 is an American Society for Testing Materials [ASTM] number. A36 is tested for tensile strength, yield point, etc. The steel makers are concerned with performance. To a degree, they consider the carbon and manganese content. There is a manganese addition to A36. The carbon content may vary, say 0.24 to 0.28%.

 

Nowadays, A36 is called "mild steel," probably a misnomer. It is in no way the mild steel that 1020 is.

[Dale M.]

Quite frankly, I would do away with old material that is difficult to work with, and replace it with newer materials, IF you are good enough smith,  person that  is contracting work will never ever know.... And once you have taken something "old" and reformed it to newer shapes it looses it validity as a authentic antique piece... Antique piece is probably something at least 75 years old, has some sort of patina and hopefully a provenance,.. IF you  heat,  bend, hammer  or change finish (patina) it's no longer original and is probably now just  "junk"....

 

Dale

[Wroughton]

Dale,

 

 

Agreed the merits of said material as certifiable antique or any other historical connotation are nil but that's not "junk", that's usable scrap stock. 

 

I have large and small fire sprinkler hangers from 100 year old buildings. They are in 1/4", 5/16",3/8", and 1/2" round stock. They are a joy to grab and forge a stem or hook out of. Probably the same mild steel. Nothing hard to use about this stock. 

 

The decision to kick the clients ideas about using the old stock down the road is dismissive without some serious "splanin" to them. 

 

And I often use old stock from a client that they want turned into something. I do have to talk them down when it ends up being cast. 

Sometimes these items don't resemble the stock or item at all in the end but the client is more than happy knowing that what they have

now is made from that piece that they cherished and thought so much of. 

[Frosty]

When Bessemer first introduced his process, the resultant very low carbon iron/steel was billed as (modern?) wrought iron. I think it was called Bessemer iron but that's a really fuzzy memory from reading years before the Great White . . . birch got me.

 

Frosty The Lucky.

[jmccustomknives]

Quite frankly, I would do away with old material that is difficult to work with, and replace it with newer materials, IF you are good enough smith,  person that  is contracting work will never ever know.... And once you have taken something "old" and reformed it to newer shapes it looses it validity as a authentic antique piece... Antique piece is probably something at least 75 years old, has some sort of patina and hopefully a provenance,.. IF you  heat,  bend, hammer  or change finish (patina) it's no longer original and is probably now just  "junk"....

 

Dale

 

That's just the thing, that stuff is extremely easy to forge.  It is to today's a36 what the a36 is to 52100.    I can move as much material with half the effort. I knew it wasn't wrought iron but it didn't forge like any steel I'd ever used.   And anyway, all it does is add to the story of the revitalization of the down town district, what was old is made new agan. 

And I will make like a bandit (figuratively speaking ofcourse) with as much of it as I can have given to me :D .

[K. Bryan Morgan]

I was re-reading the section on steel and iron chemistry in "Elementary Forge Practice" by Lord John Bacon last night and it was called "machinery steel", also known as mild steel.  But he refers to it more often as machinery steel.  It is stronger than wrought iron in that it will not split, has a higher strength.  But in most other ways is chemically the same as wrought iron minus the silica.  It is made by a Bessemer process or by taking pig iron through the different heating stages to burn off excess carbon.  Once the desired carbon level is attained the process is stopped.  He also noted that this was rather difficult and the most common method was to use the Bessemer process to make the machinery steel.  So, with that in mind it would seem to me that the carbon content would be more in the .1% to .25% range of wrought iron. 

 

Less carbon means more malleability from what I understand.  So this would be like Frank says, more like the 1018/1020 that is available today.  Personally for me its what the customer wants and what the customer wants the customer gets. 

[Dale M.]

Well... Sorry but I didn't really mean "junk" as useless... I meant it as steel that has inferior grade and may not be as useable or desirable as to steel  with better pedigree for particular application.....

 

Dale

[ThomasPowers]

Actually old mild steel is considered to have a HIGHER pedigree than A36 which is much more like trashcan stew steel than the old stuff made directly from ore.  It's just nowadays it's far cheaper to melt scrap than reduce ore and we are all about the cheap!

 

Modern != Better in everything!

[forgemaster]

We used to be able to get a grade here in Oz known as weldex, it was very easy to fire weld, forged like it was butter.  Had very low carbon in it, but was a quality steel all the same,  It used to be used for aplications such as lifting gear, chains, rings, boiler components, boiler stay bolts.  It had the ability that it would stretch or bend a fair way before it would break.  Basically it was I think was manufactured as a replacement for wrought when wrought was getting hard to source, but specs still called for a steel with the properties of wrought.  I still have a few 2"dia bars of it, if I have to do a fire welding demo for someone/group, I'll forge a little up beforehand, then use it, as I know it will weld with no problems.

[jmccustomknives]

We used to be able to get a grade here in Oz known as weldex, it was very easy to fire weld, forged like it was butter.  Had very low carbon in it, but was a quality steel all the same,  It used to be used for aplications such as lifting gear, chains, rings, boiler components, boiler stay bolts.  It had the ability that it would stretch or bend a fair way before it would break.  Basically it was I think was manufactured as a replacement for wrought when wrought was getting hard to source, but specs still called for a steel with the properties of wrought.  I still have a few 2"dia bars of it, if I have to do a fire welding demo for someone/group, I'll forge a little up beforehand, then use it, as I know it will weld with no problems.

I cut into it a fair way and broke the piece.  It had "filiments" like wrought.  Does this Weldex do this.  I'm thinking it is some kind of wrought, but it may be what you've got.  I'm gonna have to beg some more of this off the guy.  It's awesomly easy to forge.

[Bentiron1946]

Just to let you know, antique = 100 years or older, collectors item = 50 years or older. I'm a collectors item not an antique no matter what my children think, Happy Father's Day.